Wagner group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin feared dead in plane crash.

We (I) didn't miss it. I just thought it wasn't important. The 2nd plane flying behind the one that went down, made a quick U turn and returned to Moscow where it landed. It was, (according to numerous witness reports on Telegram) immediately boarded by FSB troops and all persons including the crew members were taken off the plane in handcuffs. One, possibly unconscious, was seen being dragged and carried. All were put in an armored vehicle (BMP?) that then drove away. Who they were, their ultimate fate (probably a grave), etc. no one knows. None of them were seen to be Prigozhin so what does it matter?

Silliness. Before you could hold the referendum you would have to get the Russians out. That is being done today and will be for awhile, but it is slow going. There were referendums with free access to Western press held in Ukraine in 2012 and 2013 and the results were very anti-Russian. That is why Russia invaded in 2014. Any referendum held in occupied lands after that is, of course, a garbage result.

I don't see the problem. They need to leave with the troops. I did not specify a firing squad. That is your fantasy not mine. Civilian or Military, if they arrived after 2014 they are Burglars, plain and simple. Both the Old Testament and the Holy Quran provide solutions for what to do with a captured criminal. Firing squads are not mentioned. My personal favorite was, fed to the dogs outside the city walls so that none can tell where she ended and shat began. But Crimea is not a walled peninsula. Does the Black Sea even have large sharks? But Russia has left so many landmines that need to be cleared in so many places. I note that in US history, when during the US Civil War the Union Army encountered the first land mines on a road, a good solution was found. Confederates were taken prisoner and made to walk in front until all the land mines were gone. I think that will also work with any Russians moronic enough to stay behind in Crimea. No one important will care or object to their performing such a valuable community service. Heck someone could probably make decent money filming it and selling the videos online (until FMovies started airing them for free of course). If they don't want that, their protection is easy. Leave now.

There are a lot of people wondering why Prigozhin allowed the 3 most crucial members of Wagner to all be on the same aircraft and also inside Russia. Lots of speculation there. Pretty obvious in retrospect, it was a very dumb move that de-headed the beast.

If I was a part of the Russian VKS crew that fired that missile, even if I was just a lowly admin clerk or mechanic guy with a wrench to change flat tires on the trailer, I would be running like Hell. No matter who ordered the launch it would be best for that person if all personnel involved drank poisoned tea, or jumped in front of a fast truck or out a high rise window. Noting the commander of the VSK had been publicly relieved of command and replaced with a more Putin-centric general only 3 days earlier.

That's if the FSB (or GRU) clean up squad wasn't already arriving at our launch site before the missile smoke had a chance to dissipate. We know Russia's Ministry od Transport was announcing the death of Prigozhin a second before the plane hit the ground. To me that implies a degree of planning and coordination. It is not improbable to suspect the coordination between the military and civilian transportation may also include select FSB (or at the least GRU). personnel.

The absolute last thing WHOEVER ordered the plane shoot down wants is for the crew of the SAM (GRAD?) to pop up and begin giving interviews in which they admit they fired the shot after being ordered to do so on the specific orders of so and so. So, like the pirates who buried Captain Kidd's treasure or the squad with Colonel Mosby when he stole the Union payroll of gold and know how much and where it is, their lives are about to be very short. Probably much shorter than Prigozhin;s after his fake coup performance.

I don't see those VSK personnel going off to serve as infantry in Ukraine. Too much time for them to talk or show their own cell phone videos. So round them up and execute them ASAP, We outsiders should probably look for reports of a dozen VSK men being killed in a training accident or something like that.

I would be very interested in your proof of the above statement, as I cannot find any evidence regarding the US being so heavily involved in the Ukraine election of Petro Poroshenko after the massacre in Kyiv.

Certainly Obama and Biden supported the illegal uprising. Nobody with a TV could have missed what went on, of course the Nazi Revolution of Dignity also known as the Maidan Revolution or the Ukrainian Revolution, took place in Ukraine in February 2014
What occurred was a large barricaded protest camp occupied Independence Square in central Kyiv throughout the 'Maidan Uprising'. In January and February 2014, clashes in Kyiv between protesters and Berkut special riot police resulted in the deaths of 108 protesters and 13 police officers, and the wounding of many others.
Euromaidan (/?j??r??ma?'d??n, ?j??ro?-/; Ukrainian: ??????????, romanized: Yevromaidan, lit. 'Euro Square', IPA: ), or the Maidan Uprising, was a wave of demonstrations and civil unrest in Ukraine, which began on 21 November 2013 with large protests in Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Independence Square) in Kyiv.
the Verkhovna Rada voted on February 22, 2014 to "remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine" on the grounds that he had withdrawn from fulfilling his constitutional duties, and to hold early presidential elections on May 25 the acting Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov signed a decree that dissolved the agency, which was replaced with the National Guard of Ukraine.
On 24 February 2014, the new government issued a warrant for Yanukovych's arrest, accusing him of being responsible for the death of protestors. Yanukovych went into exile in Russia, claiming to still be the legitimate head of state.
The protests were prompted by reports from several domestic and foreign election monitors as well as the widespread public perception that the results of the run-off vote of 21 November 2004 between leading candidates Viktor Yushchenko and Viktor Yanukovych were rigged by the authorities in favour of the latter.

Gosh do you actually believe any of that drivel? The Russian selected 'President' of Ukraine was thrown out of office in a very democratic rebellion which was then ratified by a general open election and Zelinski was the choice of the people of Ukraine, by a landslide. The reality is the people of Ukraine love living without Russian control and even though Russia invaded in 2014 the life styles of most Ukrainian citizens began improving at once as soon as the thugs previously selected by Russia were driven out or fell from high windows. Yes Zelinski was a former comedian and had a very popular television show before the people convinced him to seek office. Today he is probably one of the most popular heads of state in Europe. As soon as the Russian occupiers are thrown out he will probably step down and a new election will select his successor. Odds are excellent it will be someone who fully brings Ukraine into the European Union.

Strange the same people who fervently support Trump, a B-listed TV personality, denounce the Ukraine leader for also being an A-listed TV star. Two-faced bigots come to mind.

More or less accurate except for a few missed details and a correction. First there was not and is not every anything illegal about a popular uprising. Such is how even the US was formed. My own state's motto on our flag iis Death To Tyrants, and we mean it. Yanukovych was very lucky his so many Russian bodyguards and that they were so well armed when he fled or the people would have probably strung his corpse from a tall place as he (and any pro-Communist politician) deserved).

Yes there was a large (pretty peaceful) collection of protestors in Independence Square. The Russian backed government under the command of puppet "President" Yanukocich decided to emulate what the Chinese did at Tianiemin(SP?) Square. They riot police took position and began shooting into the crowd in the (mistaken) belief the protestors would all simp;y flee. There are many videos of what happened that day and it is even an official holiday of mourning in Ukraine with a monument in the square in memory of the 100 murdered protestors. Many of the unarmed protestors charged the police gunfire and after wrestling some guns away returned fire and performed a heroic rear guard action to allow the evacuation of those not already dead or dying. You should have mentioned that part.

Yanukovych had clearly betrayed both the people and the Constitution of Ukraine and a (still open) Warrant for the criminal's arrest was issued, but sadly with the assistance of Russia he fled the country. If that wanted criminal truly believes he is somehow innocent of all charges he should at least show the same courage as the American ex-President and surrender himself for trial in Ukraine. There will be so much world wide interest it is safe to forecast that Ukraine's legal system will be scrupulously careful to ensure the trial will be a fair one and whatever conclusion they arrive at will be well supported by the evidence. But of course very, very, few the people selected by Putin to be his stooges have courage. <Prigozhin may have been the only exception, a scumbag yes, but a brave one. LoL>

Please don't respond to my posts ken and i wont respond to yours.
America is not a Democracy and never has been, on the other hand, the Democratic Russian Federation certainly is, yes it has faults, but it is a democracy and West Ukraine SSR constitution binds Ukraine to the Democratic Russian Constitution & its Bill of Rights ratified in December 1993 whether you chose to disbelieve that or not, I really don't really care.
these two have karma associated to the murder of 38 Australians on MH17 the image was taken April 22nd 2014 the very day before UN passed its resolution.
Arseniy Yatsenyuk's family already lived in the US, they ran Real Estate business in the USA. If you looked you'd know that, Arseniy Yatsenyuk is I under associated Scientology movement. I don't need lectures from people like you Ken, you wouldn't know the truth if it jumped up and bit you pal


On 17 July 2014 MH17 was ordered by the West Ukraine Air Controller to change its course and fly outside the safe international air corridor straight to missile the West Ukrainians knew was there and would (as the system did) the West Ukraine government knew it would.

So is Russia a Democracy? Few I think would assert so, given control of the media and silence of the majority. Western countries of course trot out 'Authoritarian' or Totalitarian' and given suppression of Russian opposition by court, public silence, and intimidation by the major Russian employer, it is hard to deny such claims. On the other hand, the American government is scarcely democratic, with presidential manipulation of the Supreme Court, division of powers is non-existent in America. Opposition figures, and media, still disappear (though less often) in Russia, don't they? Contra-thinkers in America are still as a matter of course labelled Commies or China lovers. As far as democracy goes, America sets a low standard and a deplorable example. So is America a Democracy then?

No it was not to discuss America but simply to put the concept of Russian democracy alongside that of America in the current context. You raised the question as to whether Russia is a democracy. I continue the question. Read again in context.

Actually Prigozhin was not the owner of either plane. They were both short term leases from a charter airline company.

Also the leftist myth about Ameria being a Democravy. No, it is a republic, which is a wholly different thing