Judas's Betrayal Of Jesus
This is a follow-up to my previous blog.As I mentioned in a response to my Christian friends in the previous blog:
“I wish to state that the position expressed in this blog is based on a logical deduction made from the premises that I have mentioned.
I respect your position which, I believe, is based on your faith and which may not be in agreement with the deduction I have stated.
The Bible(KJV), in Hebrews 11:1 states:
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
This indicates that faith is based on hope and trust. It is not based on the evidence of things seen, which I refer to as “hard” evidence. Rather, it is based on evidence of things not seen, which I may refer to as “soft” evidence.
Faith is a personal internal experience.
I would like to believe that your faith provides you with a psychological security and sense of meaning in your lives, and I am happy for you all in this regard.”
Also, the Bible(KJV), in 1 Corinthians 3:19, states:
“For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.”
I accept that, based on your faith, you may choose to adopt this position and dismiss the process of logical reasoning, based on the principles of deductive logic, which is presented below.
Premise 1:
God is omniscient and infallible.
(i.e., God knows everything - past, present, future,
and he can never be wrong).
Premise 2:
Jesus (God) knew beforehand that Judas would betray him.
(as stated in the Bible)
Conclusion:
Therefore, Judas could not avoid betraying Jesus.
(God can never be wrong, and what God knows beforehand
must come to pass so it is inevitable and cannot be avoided).
Based on the principle of deductive logic, applied to the premises stated above,
Judas could not have avoided betraying Jesus.
(I am refraining from using the terms “free will” or “free choice”)
This is the context for the position stated in my previous blog.
I welcome any relevant comments, criticisms, of the process of logical reasoning presented above which is based on the principles of deductive logic.
I am not disputing the comments made by my Christian friends with reference to the purpose of Jesus's death, sin, salvation, etc. in my previous blog.
Comments (90)
You wrote:
"I have a problem with Premise 1. "God is omniscient and infallible."
I am merely stating what is generally accepted about God.
With regard to your statement:
The problem is there exist several portions of the Old Testament which imply that God was neither all knowing, nor all powerful. Judges 1:19 for instance"
I have done a Google search on "Judges 1: 19" and it has revealed arguments for and against it.
Perhaps, others can comment on it.
I am merely stating what is generally accepted about God.
Socrates: With regard to your statement:
The problem is there exist several portions of the Old Testament which imply that God was neither all knowing, nor all powerful. Judges 1:19 for instance"
I have done a Google search on "Judges 1: 19" and it has revealed arguments for and against it.
Perhaps, others can comment on it.
First of all, I cannot state enough to you guys,when reading God's word PLEASE read the whole chapter before making your own personal conclusions as to your own interpretation of what s being said and what is not being said.
Judges 1:19 speaks nothing to the fact or implies that God is not or is omniscient. this passage is speaking about the men men of Israel/man, Judah! Not about God! I don't know to whom you speak, who do not accept all things concerning God especially, as Christians, we accept all things concerning God, who he is and who He is not according to what is written...
{b]Judges 1:19:And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
Secondly, God was with JUDAH(the man/men/Israel) during this battle, Judah was able to drive out the inhabitants of the mountain, but could not drive our the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron... this is speaking about Judah losing his/their faith and had their eyes on the wrong things and lost their confidence. This says nothing about God unable to drive out the people. Had Judah kept their FAITH, he would have been able to continue to drive them out... but he Judah (they) were/was looking at the iron chariots instead of keeping the faith knowing that God was with them/him, he began to distrust God which was/is sin. Judah became afraid and gave up in the battle. God would have continued helping them had they not lost their faith and became afraid of the chariots of iron. Read the WHOLE CHAPTER PLEASE NOT JUST ONE PASSAGE...
Please read God's word with understanding, and not pick out one passage to try and make your points of your own assumptions and interpretations. Thanks.
Re Ken's Comment about chariots,
please note that I accept God's omniscience and infallibility as stated in Premise1 so I suppose your comment is directed to Ken.
It is up to him to respond to your comment if he wishes to do so.
Seems not too long that we had this discussion.
The Bible(KJV), in Hebrews 11:1 states:
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
This text you quote from does not exclude "evidence" as you may be suggesting, but actually implies it. For faith is said to be "the evidence" of things we do not see (Heb. 11:1). For example, the evidence that someone is a reliable witness justifies my believing his testimony of what he saw and I did not. Even so, our faith in "things not seen" (Heb. 11:1 NKJV) is justified by the evidence we have that God does exist which is "clearly seen, being understood from what has been made" (Rom. 1:20).
Secondly, God in fact calls upon us to use our reason (1 Pet. 3:15). Indeed, He has given "clear" (Rom. 1:20) and "convincing proofs" (Acts 1:3) so that we do not have to exercise blind faith.
Your words: Premise 1:
God is omniscient and infallible.
(i.e., God knows everything - past, present, future,
and he can never be wrong).
Premise 2:
Jesus (God) knew beforehand that Judas would betray him.
(as stated in the Bible)
Conclusion:
Therefore, Judas could not avoid betraying Jesus.
(God can never be wrong, and what God knows beforehand
must come to pass so it is inevitable and cannot be avoided).
Based on the principle of deductive logic, applied to the premises stated above,
Judas could not have avoided betraying Jesus.
As to your conclusion, based on your deductive reasoning from these premises, you are in fact, setting up a "Faulty Dilemma Fallacy," in your argument.
Since you are forcing one into a either/or answer when the question has a third alternative.
Determinism and free will are not necessarily contradictory, for it is possible that both are true. For there's nothing contradictory in affirming that, "God determined that a choice will be freely made." In other words, it is possible for God to use free will as a means to do what has been determined. This does not inhibit freedom either experientially (because the person does not know what choice is determined and feels that the choice is his) or really (because there is no coercion or force involved).
And as I mentioned before on your previous blog...
One of the most powerful indications that the Bible sees no contradiction between God's predetermination and human free choice is found in Acts 2:23. On the one hand, it declares that Jesus death was determined "by God's set purpose and foreknowledge." Yet even though it was set and determined from eternity that Jesus would die, nonetheless, Jesus says He did it freely: "I lay down my life- only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord" (Jn. 10:17).
Nothing could be clearer. God determined it from eternity, and yet Jesus did it freely. And if it can be true of Jesus' free choices, then there is no contradiction in asserting that our free actions are both determined and free. As far as the Bible is concerned, there is no contradiction between divine predetermination and human free choice.
What is your response to God's predetermination (Acts 2:23), in view, of Jesus free choice, to die for our sins on the cross (John 10:17)?
God bless, my friend!
“If it is that Judas was destined (predestined) to betray Jesus, then from the account and the premises you mentioned, yes.”
Thank you for supporting the conclusion in this blog, based on deductive logic.
As I mentioned in the blog:
“I welcome any relevant comments, criticisms, of the process of logical reasoning presented above which is based on the principles of deductive logic.”
That is the main focus of this blog.
“I am refraining from using the terms “free will” or “free choice” in this blog”.
Perhaps, those can be covered in a subsequent blog. I hope others would note this.
SisteraC. & Ken.
_____________ ________
It makes for very interesting reading complete with authentication.
I have no idea what you guys would make of it.
In much the same way,all authentic paper currencies have water marks. All phoney scriptures do not have it. There's much room for debate with regard to the meaning of certain controvercial passages,but all the theologians agree that we have complete and unabridged received biblical text.
In response to Judges 1:19....
Not only did God know in advance (with omniscience), that there would be chariots of iron, but He also used this occasion (in which He foreknew, and preplanned), to permit enemies to hold out as a test to display whether His people would obey Him. For they have been promised by Joshua that they could conquer the land (Josh. 1:6-9), had they willingly "trusted" (by faith), in God's unlimited power (omnipotence). Indeed, it was a failure in their part to rise to full trust and obedience for victory by God's power (Deut. 7:22).
God's Word says..."When you go out to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, will be with you (Deut. 20:1)."
God bless!
You wrote:
"Just because God knows what is going to happen,does not mean that He is 'making' it happen".
The blog simply states that what God knows beforehand must come to pass so it is inevitable and cannot be avoided.
It says nothing about God making it happen, simply that it must happen.
The article you mentioned states:
“God knowing what we are going to do does not mean that we can't do something else.”
This is merely a supposition. We can never know that as a fact.
What is certain, and a fact, in view of God's omniscience and infallibility, is that we have to do what God knows we are going to do.
It is noteworthy that it says the devil "prompted," not forced, Judas to betray Christ (John 13:2). The act of Judas was free and uncoerced. This is evident from the use of the word "betray" (Matt. 26:16, 21, 23), for betrayal is a deliberate act (Luke 6:16). And though the devil had put the idea into his heart (John 13:2), Judas performed the act freely, admitting later that he had "sinned" (27:4).
God bless!
Hi, Ken
Because the testing of our faith produces patience. And patience has it's perfect work in us, so that we may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing (James 1:4).
Testing "reveals to us" where we are in terms of our faith as "God already knows" whether or not we will pass a given test. It is through the fire of testing and trail that we can be strengthened, sanctified, and purified (in other words, be made holy).
Good question. God bless!
The reference that Judas admitted he sinned is found in Matthew 27:4.
I just noticed that I referenced the chapter and verse, without mentioning the name of the book (the gospel of Matthew), by which to find it.
God bless, ya!
Thanks for the info.
Hope you are keeping well!
Welcome!
With regard to "The Lost Gospel Of Judas", please note that I mentioned the link you quoted and gave an abridged version of the article in my previous blog, "Judas Iscariot and Free Will". You can view it and the blog comments if you like.
Or was it! Were just a regular everyday snake?
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”(Revelation 1:8)
And,
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”(John 20:29)
Thank you.
coming from the bible
If we belive everything that comes out of that book
then the world is still flat
Sock, you said,
God knowing what we are going to do does not mean that we can't do something else. This is merely a supposition. We can never know that as a fact.
What is certain, and a fact, in view of God's omniscience and infallibility, is that we have to do what God knows we are going to do.
OF COURSE it is certain and a fact that we "have to do" what God knows we are going to do. And what we ARE GOING TO DO is an act of our free choice! He sees our choice from the future standpoint. This foreknowledge does not change what we chose to do; it simply knew it.
Thanks for your advice and your warning.
Yes, I have honestly examined my heart, etc., based on which I have come up with this blog. No matter what I may think or feel, things can only take place, in accordance with God's foreknowledge.
Who is blaming God?
No matter what I may think or feel, things can only take place, in accordance with God's foreknowledge."
A very confusing statement. God's knowing what we will do is from a future standpoint and DOES NOT EFFECT a present decision.
Why does God knowing what we will do mean he caused us to choose it?
Who said God's knowing what we will do means he caused us to choose it?
The blog simply states that what God knows beforehand must come to pass so it is inevitable and cannot be avoided.
.
It is true that determinism and free will are direct opposites. No one is debating that. Lol.
However, the law of non-contradiction states, that opposites cannot both be true at the same time and in the same sense. You seem to bypass that last phrase, when asserting that determinism and free will are necessarily contradictory.
As I have mentioned before, when quoting Aquinas...
A future free act is determined from the relation of God's infallible foreknowledge and yet also free when viewed from the relationship of our free choice (in the sense of the power to do otherwise). Thus, infallible knowledge and free choice are not contradictory, for the law of non-contradiction demands that to be contradictory, two propositions must affirm and deny the same thing in the same sense and in the same relationship.
However, in this case, one and the same event is determined in one relationship, but not determined in a different relationship- one "in relationship to God's knowledge," and the other "in relation to our free choice."
God bless!
Hello, Calmheartseeks.
Yes, that's a great book in helping us to see predestination from a balanced perspective, since the Bible teaches both God's sovereignty (Isa. 14:24-27; 46:9-11) and human free will (Gen. 2:16; Jn. 1:12-13).
Btw, God determinately knew and knowingly determined that you and I would freely choose to comment on this blog, though we both knew, that there were many blogs to choose from.
God bless!
Actually, the Bible teaches that the earth is round, as opposed to flat (Isaiah 40:22). The Bible is pre-scientific, in this regard.
For the earth is not square, rather, it's the people who held that belief are the one's who are square.
God bless!