Welfare baby solution: Family Cap. (411)
bestbefore: You don't have to know someone of the ilk you have mentioned above,but we all know that they are out there milking the system.
This thread started out as to why certain children were being denied basic welfare,but has, as with most threads ,digressed into the Welfare State in general.
There are certainly those in need of support in many country's across the world,and I have the greatest empathy for them.However there are also those that could help themselves,but prefer to sit back and expect the State to keep them.
In the UK pensioners get a raw deal even though they spent years working and paying into the system to pay for their retirement,but others come along, often from other countries and get everything paid for them.
Paying out £7000 a month in rent to a family with 7 children [ only 3 when they first arrived from Somalia] is in my opinion an insult to others who struggle on a daily basis to keep their heads above water.
This is but one case of many. Rant over.
This thread started out as to why certain children were being denied basic welfare,but has, as with most threads ,digressed into the Welfare State in general.
There are certainly those in need of support in many country's across the world,and I have the greatest empathy for them.However there are also those that could help themselves,but prefer to sit back and expect the State to keep them.
In the UK pensioners get a raw deal even though they spent years working and paying into the system to pay for their retirement,but others come along, often from other countries and get everything paid for them.
Paying out £7000 a month in rent to a family with 7 children [ only 3 when they first arrived from Somalia] is in my opinion an insult to others who struggle on a daily basis to keep their heads above water.
This is but one case of many. Rant over.
What are the sources for you information?
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jac379: I don't know what the welfare scheme is like in Aussieland, but in the UK, Income Support, the lowest rate of benefit is grim.
I can understand why a man would not want to take a job that might make life even grimmer for his children, even if it was temporary.
That's why the Tax Credit scheme works in the UK. It tops up the worst wages to a livable amount.
I can understand why a man would not want to take a job that might make life even grimmer for his children, even if it was temporary.
That's why the Tax Credit scheme works in the UK. It tops up the worst wages to a livable amount.
Here you go Jac
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Thank you, Merri.
So, to summarize, the man with the two kids was long-term unemployed. From the wiki link it suggests that unemployment benefits are variable according to previous earnings, but the lowest rate covered only the most basic needs.
Assuming that long-term unemployment would lead in a reduction of rates to the point where the man was on the most basic of survival incomes, work that reduced that would mean earning less than it was possible to survive on.
Gain the social status of employment, but watch your kids go hungry?
Its hardly a choice, or an incentive.
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jac379: Thank you, Merri.
So, to summarize, the man with the two kids was long-term unemployed. From the wiki link it suggests that unemployment benefits are variable according to previous earnings, but the lowest rate covered only the most basic needs.
Assuming that long-term unemployment would lead in a reduction of rates to the point where the man was on the most basic of survival incomes, work that reduced that would mean earning less than it was possible to survive on.
Gain the social status of employment, but watch your kids go hungry?
Its hardly a choice, or an incentive.
So, to summarize, the man with the two kids was long-term unemployed. From the wiki link it suggests that unemployment benefits are variable according to previous earnings, but the lowest rate covered only the most basic needs.
Assuming that long-term unemployment would lead in a reduction of rates to the point where the man was on the most basic of survival incomes, work that reduced that would mean earning less than it was possible to survive on.
Gain the social status of employment, but watch your kids go hungry?
Its hardly a choice, or an incentive.
Jac, are you talking about Blue's post.. I dont know who this man is... with the two kids.?
All I know is that our dole wage is not able to sustain anyone much in the long run, its pretty low, but I was trying to find the page which clarifies how much you get if you have children. I dont know as I never claimed for it...
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Merriweather: Jac, are you talking about Blue's post.. I dont know who this man is... with the two kids.?
All I know is that our dole wage is not able to sustain anyone much in the long run, its pretty low, but I was trying to find the page which clarifies how much you get if you have children. I dont know as I never claimed for it...
All I know is that our dole wage is not able to sustain anyone much in the long run, its pretty low, but I was trying to find the page which clarifies how much you get if you have children. I dont know as I never claimed for it...
Yeah, I was going on the information that he and you both provided.
If a system sets people up to fail, its hardly suprising if they fail.
If a system, or sub-system sets people up to fail those who have
had a more positive sequence of events in their lives do not have the right to criticise.
Expensive and draconian solutions that result in some people's loss of human rights are not the answer.
You need to change the sub-system so that it enables people and provides an incentive, just the same as for the rest of the population. If this is too expensive and welfare is the cheapest and most effective option for the economy long-term, then be quiet.
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jac379: Yeah, I was going on the information that he and you both provided.
If a system sets people up to fail, its hardly suprising if they fail.
If a system, or sub-system sets people up to fail those who have
had a more positive sequence of events in their lives do not have the right to criticise.
Expensive and draconian solutions that result in some people's loss of human rights are not the answer.
You need to change the sub-system so that it enables people and provides an incentive, just the same as for the rest of the population. If this is too expensive and welfare is the cheapest and most effective option for the economy long-term, then be quiet.
If a system sets people up to fail, its hardly suprising if they fail.
If a system, or sub-system sets people up to fail those who have
had a more positive sequence of events in their lives do not have the right to criticise.
Expensive and draconian solutions that result in some people's loss of human rights are not the answer.
You need to change the sub-system so that it enables people and provides an incentive, just the same as for the rest of the population. If this is too expensive and welfare is the cheapest and most effective option for the economy long-term, then be quiet.
Hi Jac,
Please read my post, also. The example I cited was completely at variance with your view of the welfare world. It's not all about those in true need, for whom not for a moment, would I deny them a cent.
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venere08: Hi Jac,
Please read my post, also. The example I cited was completely at variance with your view of the welfare world. It's not all about those in true need, for whom not for a moment, would I deny them a cent.
Please read my post, also. The example I cited was completely at variance with your view of the welfare world. It's not all about those in true need, for whom not for a moment, would I deny them a cent.
Give me a clue, Venere. Which page?
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jac379: Yeah, I was going on the information that he and you both provided.
If a system sets people up to fail, its hardly suprising if they fail.
If a system, or sub-system sets people up to fail those who have
had a more positive sequence of events in their lives do not have the right to criticise.
Expensive and draconian solutions that result in some people's loss of human rights are not the answer.
You need to change the sub-system so that it enables people and provides an incentive, just the same as for the rest of the population. If this is too expensive and welfare is the cheapest and most effective option for the economy long-term, then be quiet.
If a system sets people up to fail, its hardly suprising if they fail.
If a system, or sub-system sets people up to fail those who have
had a more positive sequence of events in their lives do not have the right to criticise.
Expensive and draconian solutions that result in some people's loss of human rights are not the answer.
You need to change the sub-system so that it enables people and provides an incentive, just the same as for the rest of the population. If this is too expensive and welfare is the cheapest and most effective option for the economy long-term, then be quiet.
For a start... Blues is east of the country in another state.. and I dont know him personally.
They have incentive programs.. courses, all those things that you can go get certificates for if you want to... and the govt will pay you too... not only for the course,, but your payments will still be available... how much more sub system can there be.
Stone the bloody crows, but every time the word Welfare pops up, you see Red... cannot you accept that some people are on the dole because of circumstances beyond their control, and some just like to do,.. not a lot... Jeez, its life..
Dont go taking it so seriously... Its just a topic of discussion about children ... well, it started off that way...
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Merriweather: For a start... Blues is east of the country in another state.. and I dont know him personally.
They have incentive programs.. courses, all those things that you can go get certificates for if you want to... and the govt will pay you too... not only for the course,, but your payments will still be available... how much more sub system can there be.
Stone the bloody crows, but every time the word Welfare pops up, you see Red... cannot you accept that some people are on the dole because of circumstances beyond their control, and some just like to do,.. not a lot... Jeez, its life..
Dont go taking it so seriously... Its just a topic of discussion about children ... well, it started off that way...
They have incentive programs.. courses, all those things that you can go get certificates for if you want to... and the govt will pay you too... not only for the course,, but your payments will still be available... how much more sub system can there be.
Stone the bloody crows, but every time the word Welfare pops up, you see Red... cannot you accept that some people are on the dole because of circumstances beyond their control, and some just like to do,.. not a lot... Jeez, its life..
Dont go taking it so seriously... Its just a topic of discussion about children ... well, it started off that way...
I wouldn't say that I see red, but I do have a fundemental objection to removing basic human rights from some people and seeing comments where people cannot extrapolate that their ideas would affect the most vulnerable in society, particularly children.
Call me old fashioned.
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Conorco: What i think is also unfair is that single mothers are being discriminated against, why does the law not apply to families on social welfare?
oklahoma state has for yrs.limited to 3 kids its on u after that to support but illegals get welfare cant ask them if they are legal/fed.law!many states are ignoring that law due to money crunch.why should illegals get benefits¬ deported?------ This thread is Archived ------
reb56: oklahoma state has for yrs.limited to 3 kids its on u after that to support but illegals get welfare cant ask them if they are legal/fed.law!many states are ignoring that law due to money crunch.why should illegals get benefits¬ deported?
Dunno Darls... Dunno..
It's such a muddled up world.. I guess we have to flow with it... no good banging your head up against a brick wall with all the stuff that happens that you dont agree with..
Cos you cant change it...
But that is interesting about the state of Oklahoma.. so your limit there is 3... interesting... thanx.
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reb56: oklahoma state has for yrs.limited to 3 kids its on u after that to support but illegals get welfare cant ask them if they are legal/fed.law!many states are ignoring that law due to money crunch.why should illegals get benefits¬ deported?
good question?------ This thread is Archived ------
Merriweather: Dunno Darls... Dunno..
It's such a muddled up world.. I guess we have to flow with it... no good banging your head up against a brick wall with all the stuff that happens that you dont agree with..
Cos you cant change it...
But that is interesting about the state of Oklahoma.. so your limit there is 3... interesting... thanx.
no in my state but illegals are checked now/nod wink.It's such a muddled up world.. I guess we have to flow with it... no good banging your head up against a brick wall with all the stuff that happens that you dont agree with..
Cos you cant change it...
But that is interesting about the state of Oklahoma.. so your limit there is 3... interesting... thanx.
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venere08: Hi Leigh!
No idea, either. But it's got to be a kind of blinkers some folk choose to wear. They are clearly exercising choice, as it cannot possibly be from lack of facts, as these are readily available and at times also directly observable.
I could go on, but I suspect it will be interpreted within a similar vein about which we speak. Not that it would personally bother me, but I don't thnk it wouldn't achieve much towards constructive discussion of the OP.
No idea, either. But it's got to be a kind of blinkers some folk choose to wear. They are clearly exercising choice, as it cannot possibly be from lack of facts, as these are readily available and at times also directly observable.
I could go on, but I suspect it will be interpreted within a similar vein about which we speak. Not that it would personally bother me, but I don't thnk it wouldn't achieve much towards constructive discussion of the OP.
Yes, also seems every good debate topic turns into a battle of one-upman-ship ...like a contest, like we are being graded on something....I stopped receiving grades about 40 years ago...the fighting gets so tiresome and certainly does not lend itself to informative dialog or even inspiring one to change one's mind about an issue, any issue.....
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ironman57321: I think birth control should be free,world wide.This would help with people who lack the maturity or whatever,to raise children.
This sounds so simple when you say it, but if they lack the maturity to raise children, I imagine they lack the maturity to use the free birth control...
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venere08: sorry, but I don't believe you asked this question. I can't possibly bring myself to reply.
The above was meant to be part of the enclosed text.
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jac379: I'm sorry, I haven't read all this thread, or all your comments.
I've just dipped in, but the bits I've highlighted was the response that I expected.
I have read newspaper reports and have seen TV documentaries regarding the benefits system, too and there has been conflicting information and perspectives.
I think it is absolutely to do with viewer ratings because that's what keeps the cash rolling in. Are "Sun" readers going to carry on buying the paper if it suddenly starts in depth reporting regarding the politics, sociopsychology and economics of lone parents and immigrants into the UK? Unlikely, particularly given the vocabulary of this paper is set at a limit of about 300 words.
Are people going to continue paying their TV licence and respect that great British institution, the BBC, if they start airing documentaries with false information about immigrants, or lone parents?
Each section of media coverage has their target audience and will bias reports accordingly.
I also suspect that their may be other agendas that effect the overall media reporting the UK.
Yes, some people commit benefit fraud and manipulations, just as some people commit tax fraud and manipulations, but why are benefits the subject that seems to be most highlighted, when the probable loss of revenue is greater for tax?
I think it serves a purpose.
I suspect to follow up tax fraud and provide an effective system for getting people back into work would be a very expensive business.
We already have a failing economy. It strikes me, its very easy to put the focus on benefit fraud and manipulations as a red herring. It detracts attention from inadequacies and needless expenses made by each of our successive governments. I suspect that if we knew what our governments were up to, we would quickly lose all faith in that system. When scandals come out, the poo hits the fan, but scandals not coming out doesn't mean they're not happening.
Knowing that you have a system that fails the most vulnerable people through lack of financial and well thought out input, means that you can attack the groups of people who simply don't have the resources to fight back.
The whole thing feeds on the hierarchical system that we have and the need for a helluva lot of people to look down on others to make themselves feel better.
There is a whole complex area of psychology here that runs parallel to the complex economics and the complex politics. Is it right that human rights should be denied some people on this basis?
I've just dipped in, but the bits I've highlighted was the response that I expected.
I have read newspaper reports and have seen TV documentaries regarding the benefits system, too and there has been conflicting information and perspectives.
I think it is absolutely to do with viewer ratings because that's what keeps the cash rolling in. Are "Sun" readers going to carry on buying the paper if it suddenly starts in depth reporting regarding the politics, sociopsychology and economics of lone parents and immigrants into the UK? Unlikely, particularly given the vocabulary of this paper is set at a limit of about 300 words.
Are people going to continue paying their TV licence and respect that great British institution, the BBC, if they start airing documentaries with false information about immigrants, or lone parents?
Each section of media coverage has their target audience and will bias reports accordingly.
I also suspect that their may be other agendas that effect the overall media reporting the UK.
Yes, some people commit benefit fraud and manipulations, just as some people commit tax fraud and manipulations, but why are benefits the subject that seems to be most highlighted, when the probable loss of revenue is greater for tax?
I think it serves a purpose.
I suspect to follow up tax fraud and provide an effective system for getting people back into work would be a very expensive business.
We already have a failing economy. It strikes me, its very easy to put the focus on benefit fraud and manipulations as a red herring. It detracts attention from inadequacies and needless expenses made by each of our successive governments. I suspect that if we knew what our governments were up to, we would quickly lose all faith in that system. When scandals come out, the poo hits the fan, but scandals not coming out doesn't mean they're not happening.
Knowing that you have a system that fails the most vulnerable people through lack of financial and well thought out input, means that you can attack the groups of people who simply don't have the resources to fight back.
The whole thing feeds on the hierarchical system that we have and the need for a helluva lot of people to look down on others to make themselves feel better.
There is a whole complex area of psychology here that runs parallel to the complex economics and the complex politics. Is it right that human rights should be denied some people on this basis?
There is no more focus placed on welfare fraud than on tax fraud, government corruption, corporate fraud....it just happens to be the the topic of this thread...and like it or not the fraud is rampant and many of those receiving it are participating it said fraud...that does NOT mean welfare programs should not exist, it does NOT mean there aren't plenty of people who not only need/deserve them, it does NOT mean they cannot/ do not work exclusively.....it is all gray, it is all subjective, it is all individual.....singular...that is another reason it is so hard to control.....
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leigh2154: Yes, also seems every good debate topic turns into a battle of one-upman-ship ...like a contest, like we are being graded on something....I stopped receiving grades about 40 years ago...the fighting gets so tiresome and certainly does not lend itself to informative dialog or even inspiring one to change one's mind about an issue, any issue.....
That's why I rarely post on these types of threads.
I really don't gain much from reading such narrow minded tripe.
Best I leave here tonight, as I have a busy 2 days ahead.
Have a lovely day, Leigh! Pass on my best to J, also.
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venere08: That's why I rarely post on these types of threads.
I really don't gain much from reading such narrow minded tripe.
Best I leave here tonight, as I have a busy 2 days ahead.
Have a lovely day, Leigh! Pass on my best to J, also.
I really don't gain much from reading such narrow minded tripe.
Best I leave here tonight, as I have a busy 2 days ahead.
Have a lovely day, Leigh! Pass on my best to J, also.
Thanks, you too!!....J will be here (Tennessee) on May 4th !! We are both excited and nervous...AND
very happy....
I will relay your wishes to Joel!! 
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