life and death--for the atheist (295)
EagleWoman: It´s only the versions available to us now days that are judgemental and lacking in love (tools of control through fear).... We don´t know what the originals said ...
true
its like
but still trying to talk someone into religion is pointless..
they have grown and matured and made their decisions he should just concentrate on his own life and how he can fulfil his happiness..with whatever he chooses to believe or not believe..without preaching.
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Only fools and horses ...
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watch out you nonbelievers ...
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Why do all religions have in their rules don't kill!!
and all religions kill people who are not of their faith and this seems to be ok!!
We are all human and live on a tiny planet that we have to share, so what does it matter what I believe. I believe what I believe and you do the same. We will never meet so why try and get me to convert to a religion I don't want.
and all religions kill people who are not of their faith and this seems to be ok!!
We are all human and live on a tiny planet that we have to share, so what does it matter what I believe. I believe what I believe and you do the same. We will never meet so why try and get me to convert to a religion I don't want.
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i went through all the replies and i found the followings:
1.most of the replies are out of the scope of the original question, so i should not answer to those.
2. some just tried to hit my personality, they didn't put on their ideas. but forum is always for open discussion, i guess.
3. some made a question about the originality of the Quran. i would discuss about it. Allah says in the Quran, " i have sent this revelation to mankind and i'll protect it." Quran came to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)in 23 years time and it was put to his heart. the companions memorised it from him and wrote it on stones, woods and etc. then it was collected in the form of book after 13-14 years of the Prophet's death. since then the Quran is found in the form of a book. the existance of the Quran is a miracle. it got 6666 verses in arabic. but you would find millions of muslims around the world from every languages have memorised the complete Quran, with the same arabic accent. the english of the african people got their own accent. while the russian speak a different english. chinese English is different. italian people also got their own accent for english. but when they read the Quran, its the same accent. can anyone of you memorise an article of one page length written in a different language and read it in the exact accent without making a mistake even a comma?
this is how the originality of the Quran is maintained for centuries from people's heart to heart.
4. some said about the science that existed before the time of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH). yes, i agree. but if you check the history of science it was not the time when people knew about the ambryo, water cycle and all the scientific proofs that Quran provides. if you check the culture of the people of Macca at the time of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH), they were far away from the civilization. a man from barbaric nation of the deserts of Macca can't have the knowledge of science and without any mistakes.
5. one gave an example of the pond water. but the pond water already got the germs and living particles. but how was the beginning when there was no living particle?
6. some said about the evolution. evolution is nothing but chemical reactions and combustions for long period. but life is not a chemical reaction. chemical reaction can't explain life and death.
1.most of the replies are out of the scope of the original question, so i should not answer to those.
2. some just tried to hit my personality, they didn't put on their ideas. but forum is always for open discussion, i guess.
3. some made a question about the originality of the Quran. i would discuss about it. Allah says in the Quran, " i have sent this revelation to mankind and i'll protect it." Quran came to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)in 23 years time and it was put to his heart. the companions memorised it from him and wrote it on stones, woods and etc. then it was collected in the form of book after 13-14 years of the Prophet's death. since then the Quran is found in the form of a book. the existance of the Quran is a miracle. it got 6666 verses in arabic. but you would find millions of muslims around the world from every languages have memorised the complete Quran, with the same arabic accent. the english of the african people got their own accent. while the russian speak a different english. chinese English is different. italian people also got their own accent for english. but when they read the Quran, its the same accent. can anyone of you memorise an article of one page length written in a different language and read it in the exact accent without making a mistake even a comma?
this is how the originality of the Quran is maintained for centuries from people's heart to heart.
4. some said about the science that existed before the time of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH). yes, i agree. but if you check the history of science it was not the time when people knew about the ambryo, water cycle and all the scientific proofs that Quran provides. if you check the culture of the people of Macca at the time of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH), they were far away from the civilization. a man from barbaric nation of the deserts of Macca can't have the knowledge of science and without any mistakes.
5. one gave an example of the pond water. but the pond water already got the germs and living particles. but how was the beginning when there was no living particle?
6. some said about the evolution. evolution is nothing but chemical reactions and combustions for long period. but life is not a chemical reaction. chemical reaction can't explain life and death.
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mak_uits:
3. some made a question about the originality of the Quran. i would discuss about it. Allah says in the Quran, " i have sent this revelation to mankind and i'll protect it." Quran came to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)in 23 years time and it was put to his heart. the companions memorised it from him and wrote it on stones, woods and etc. then it was collected in the form of book after 13-14 years of the Prophet's death. since then the Quran is found in the form of a book. the existance of the Quran is a miracle. it got 6666 verses in arabic. but you would find millions of muslims around the world from every languages have memorised the complete Quran, with the same arabic accent. the english of the african people got their own accent. while the russian speak a different english. chinese English is different. italian people also got their own accent for english. but when they read the Quran, its the same accent. can anyone of you memorise an article of one page length written in a different language and read it in the exact accent without making a mistake even a comma?
this is how the originality of the Quran is maintained for centuries from people's heart to heart.
3. some made a question about the originality of the Quran. i would discuss about it. Allah says in the Quran, " i have sent this revelation to mankind and i'll protect it." Quran came to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)in 23 years time and it was put to his heart. the companions memorised it from him and wrote it on stones, woods and etc. then it was collected in the form of book after 13-14 years of the Prophet's death. since then the Quran is found in the form of a book. the existance of the Quran is a miracle. it got 6666 verses in arabic. but you would find millions of muslims around the world from every languages have memorised the complete Quran, with the same arabic accent. the english of the african people got their own accent. while the russian speak a different english. chinese English is different. italian people also got their own accent for english. but when they read the Quran, its the same accent. can anyone of you memorise an article of one page length written in a different language and read it in the exact accent without making a mistake even a comma?
this is how the originality of the Quran is maintained for centuries from people's heart to heart.
What you say is remarkable!! I don´t dispute it!
However, unless all those who´ve memorised the Quran actually speak and understand the exact meaning of what they´re learning by heart, the teachings of its contents is non existent. They might be able to recite it by heart but if they have to learn from it they have to rely on translations. Those translations are only as accurate as the translator is good. As good as the translator is able to convey it´s meaning after first having understood it which means having understood it´s phylosophy. And lastly, the finished translation is only as accurate as whoever is in power wants it to be!!
My opinion only!!
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EagleWoman: What you say is remarkable!! I don´t dispute it!
However, unless all those who´ve memorised the Quran actually speak and understand the exact meaning of what they´re learning by heart, the teachings of its contents is non existent. They might be able to recite it by heart but if they have to learn from it they have to rely on translations. Those translations are only as accurate as the translator is good. As good as the translator is able to convey it´s meaning after first having understood it which means having understood it´s phylosophy. And lastly, the finished translation is only as accurate as whoever is in power wants it to be!!
My opinion only!!
However, unless all those who´ve memorised the Quran actually speak and understand the exact meaning of what they´re learning by heart, the teachings of its contents is non existent. They might be able to recite it by heart but if they have to learn from it they have to rely on translations. Those translations are only as accurate as the translator is good. As good as the translator is able to convey it´s meaning after first having understood it which means having understood it´s phylosophy. And lastly, the finished translation is only as accurate as whoever is in power wants it to be!!
My opinion only!!
memorising is the way how the Quran is protected to its original revelation for centuries.however, its regretful that most of the muslims don't understand or don't try to understand the real meaning of the Quran. but one can understand the Quran if he looks at the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was sent as a teacher to mankind, a techer for the Quran. the personification of the Quran is the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Quran just gives the commands of God while Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) showed us how to fulfil that command. some muslims tries to understand the Quran by himself without looking at the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). that's why there are so many misguidance among the muslims, i must admit. but we shouldn't judge islam looking at the muslims but looking at the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and his companions.
even though all those wrong interpretation of the Quran by different individuals, Muslims around the world are still united. we got two holly lands, Macca and Madina. these two places are forbidden for the non-muslims to enter. there is a spiritual environment in those cities. if you ever meet any muslim that visited Macca and Madina, just ask him/her how he/she felt over there. even the newly converted muslims can feel the existance of God almighty over there, even the tough hearted people can't control their tears when they reach Madina. Insha Allah i am going to visit Madina and Macca this 1st of May and i'll pray for all my CS friends and Atheist people around the world so that they can get the light of faith.
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mak_uits: memorising is the way how the Quran is protected to its original revelation for centuries.however, its regretful that most of the muslims don't understand or don't try to understand the real meaning of the Quran. but one can understand the Quran if he looks at the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was sent as a teacher to mankind, a techer for the Quran. the personification of the Quran is the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Quran just gives the commands of God while Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) showed us how to fulfil that command. some muslims tries to understand the Quran by himself without looking at the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). that's why there are so many misguidance among the muslims, i must admit. but we shouldn't judge islam looking at the muslims but looking at the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and his companions.
even though all those wrong interpretation of the Quran by different individuals, Muslims around the world are still united. we got two holly lands, Macca and Madina. these two places are forbidden for the non-muslims to enter. there is a spiritual environment in those cities. if you ever meet any muslim that visited Macca and Madina, just ask him/her how he/she felt over there. even the newly converted muslims can feel the existance of God almighty over there, even the tough hearted people can't control their tears when they reach Madina. Insha Allah i am going to visit Madina and Macca this 1st of May and i'll pray for all my CS friends and Atheist people around the world so that they can get the light of faith.
even though all those wrong interpretation of the Quran by different individuals, Muslims around the world are still united. we got two holly lands, Macca and Madina. these two places are forbidden for the non-muslims to enter. there is a spiritual environment in those cities. if you ever meet any muslim that visited Macca and Madina, just ask him/her how he/she felt over there. even the newly converted muslims can feel the existance of God almighty over there, even the tough hearted people can't control their tears when they reach Madina. Insha Allah i am going to visit Madina and Macca this 1st of May and i'll pray for all my CS friends and Atheist people around the world so that they can get the light of faith.
Seems like Pat has a word or two to say about that.
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mak_uits: i went through all the replies and i found the followings:
3. some made a question about the originality of the Quran. i would discuss about it. Allah says in the Quran, " i have sent this revelation to mankind and i'll protect it." Quran came to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)in 23 years time and it was put to his heart. the companions memorised it from him and wrote it on stones, woods and etc. then it was collected in the form of book after 13-14 years of the Prophet's death. since then the Quran is found in the form of a book. the existance of the Quran is a miracle. it got 6666 verses in arabic. but you would find millions of muslims around the world from every languages have memorised the complete Quran, with the same arabic accent. the english of the african people got their own accent. while the russian speak a different english. chinese English is different. italian people also got their own accent for english. but when they read the Quran, its the same accent. can anyone of you memorise an article of one page length written in a different language and read it in the exact accent without making a mistake even a comma?
this is how the originality of the Quran is maintained for centuries from people's heart to heart.
3. some made a question about the originality of the Quran. i would discuss about it. Allah says in the Quran, " i have sent this revelation to mankind and i'll protect it." Quran came to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)in 23 years time and it was put to his heart. the companions memorised it from him and wrote it on stones, woods and etc. then it was collected in the form of book after 13-14 years of the Prophet's death. since then the Quran is found in the form of a book. the existance of the Quran is a miracle. it got 6666 verses in arabic. but you would find millions of muslims around the world from every languages have memorised the complete Quran, with the same arabic accent. the english of the african people got their own accent. while the russian speak a different english. chinese English is different. italian people also got their own accent for english. but when they read the Quran, its the same accent. can anyone of you memorise an article of one page length written in a different language and read it in the exact accent without making a mistake even a comma?
this is how the originality of the Quran is maintained for centuries from people's heart to heart.
Kudos for that
I'm still more inclined to believe in evolution, to be honest. That has been proven by science, and there are the relics to prove it.
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mak_uits: memorising is the way how the Quran is protected to its original revelation for centuries.however, its regretful that most of the muslims don't understand or don't try to understand the real meaning of the Quran. but one can understand the Quran if he looks at the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was sent as a teacher to mankind, a techer for the Quran. the personification of the Quran is the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Quran just gives the commands of God while Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) showed us how to fulfil that command. some muslims tries to understand the Quran by himself without looking at the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). that's why there are so many misguidance among the muslims, i must admit. but we shouldn't judge islam looking at the muslims but looking at the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and his companions.
Sooooo if so many Muslims don´t understand or try to understand the real meaning of the Quran, that means that their preachings are misguided and by the same token are misguiding people ...
mak_uits: even though all those wrong interpretation of the Quran by different individuals, Muslims around the world are still united. we got two holly lands, Macca and Madina. these two places are forbidden for the non-muslims to enter. there is a spiritual environment in those cities. if you ever meet any muslim that visited Macca and Madina, just ask him/her how he/she felt over there. even the newly converted muslims can feel the existance of God almighty over there, even the tough hearted people can't control their tears when they reach Madina. Insha Allah i am going to visit Madina and Macca this 1st of May and i'll pray for all my CS friends and Atheist people around the world so that they can get the light of faith.
There no need to go to a Holy place like Macca or Madina to feel the existence of God. But if some do, well that is fantastic and no doubt a beautiful spiritual experience. The energy of divinity is not restricted to those places. The energy of God and the divine will reach anyone who is open to the experience where ever they are which is also a beautiful experience. It is rather presumptious of you to think God´s realm is sooooooooooo tiny and that atheists and all your CS friends need you to pray for them because they are out of the light of faith. That is only your own perception and not the perception of God, unless you have become God´s spoke person. Which would also be rather presumptious.
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cynicalorange: Kudos for that I'm still more inclined to believe in evolution, to be honest. That has been proven by science, and there are the relics to prove it.
yes, evolution is there. it changes the environment resulting in changes and sometimes terminations of species. but my point still refers back to the power that moves our body, that makes our thinkings and feelings, and the absnces of the power that stops our heart beat, breaths. this is spirit. why the life starts in the womb of a mother and why the death comes!! who controls it and why we can't control it!! can evolution explain it?
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mak_uits: memorising is the way how the Quran is protected to its original revelation for centuries.however, its regretful that most of the muslims don't understand or don't try to understand the real meaning of the Quran. but one can understand the Quran if he looks at the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was sent as a teacher to mankind, a techer for the Quran. the personification of the Quran is the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Quran just gives the commands of God while Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) showed us how to fulfil that command. some muslims tries to understand the Quran by himself without looking at the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). that's why there are so many misguidance among the muslims, i must admit. but we shouldn't judge islam looking at the muslims but looking at the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and his companions.
even though all those wrong interpretation of the Quran by different individuals, Muslims around the world are still united. we got two holly lands, Macca and Madina. these two places are forbidden for the non-muslims to enter. there is a spiritual environment in those cities. if you ever meet any muslim that visited Macca and Madina, just ask him/her how he/she felt over there. even the newly converted muslims can feel the existance of God almighty over there, even the tough hearted people can't control their tears when they reach Madina. Insha Allah i am going to visit Madina and Macca this 1st of May and i'll pray for all my CS friends and Atheist people around the world so that they can get the light of faith.
even though all those wrong interpretation of the Quran by different individuals, Muslims around the world are still united. we got two holly lands, Macca and Madina. these two places are forbidden for the non-muslims to enter. there is a spiritual environment in those cities. if you ever meet any muslim that visited Macca and Madina, just ask him/her how he/she felt over there. even the newly converted muslims can feel the existance of God almighty over there, even the tough hearted people can't control their tears when they reach Madina. Insha Allah i am going to visit Madina and Macca this 1st of May and i'll pray for all my CS friends and Atheist people around the world so that they can get the light of faith.
Learn it all by rote if you like but it is man's interpretation of all the holy books which is at fault.
And the worst of these is the interpretation and the twisting of the Quoran.
Women are according to your book and Sharia law given rights wich men deny them.
And as for obeying blindly a book written centuries ago then my friend you will never evolve and you like so many will be always living in the past.
As for your posts you my friend are not debating you like so many of your kind are PREACHING...And I am glad to say I like many can see that and will always post pointing out the flaws in your argument.
Religion is fine when used to guide and teach. But the way you blindy follow a book that was written by A MAN and cannot or will not question that man then old son their is no hope of a reasoned debate with you.
So continue, as many do obeying laws written by men translated by men and followed blindly by so many men.
This is true of all the holy books of all religions.
Not one of these books or sets of laws has not been touched by Man's hand...And that makes it a man's interpretation and that means you and the rest follow blindly the teachings of MEN NOT GOD...
You cannot prove any different as not one iota of proof of the existance of any GOD exists...It is a matter of faith...You may have it, good luck to you but it does not give you the right to castigate others who do not as you belive in some ancient or as in the case of the Quoran not so ancient text.
FOLK SHOULD BE FREE TO DECIDE WHAT OR WHO THEY FOLLOW WITHOUT THE RUBBISH ALL THE FOLK LIKE YOU (from all religions) ADVOCATE.
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mak_uits: yes, evolution is there. it changes the environment resulting in changes and sometimes terminations of species. but my point still refers back to the power that moves our body, that makes our thinkings and feelings, and the absnces of the power that stops our heart beat, breaths. this is spirit. why the life starts in the womb of a mother and why the death comes!! who controls it and why we can't control it!! can evolution explain it?
Admitting evolution, and then questioning who controls it, is a bit of a contradiction. Can't admit to one, then try and make out there's a 'supreme being' in control somewhere.
EVERYTHING has a shelf life for example. Milk will go sour, bread will grow mould and human organs wear out, causing us to die.
We have something we've taught ourselves through thousands of generations, and that's free will and the art of communication. We control our thoughts and feelings.
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EagleWoman: Sooooo if so many Muslims don´t understand or try to understand the real meaning of the Quran, that means that their preachings are misguided and by the same token are misguiding people ...
misguidance for those who doesn't study under the guidance. if you want to be a doctor or engineer, you need to go to a medical school or engineering school. can you be a doctor or an engineer reading at home, because all the books are available in the market. likewise we have religious schools where religion is taught by those who know about it. but many muslims buy the Quran from market and starts reading, how can they realise the real meanings.
EagleWoman: There no need to go to a Holy place like Macca or Madina to feel the existence of God. But if some do, well that is fantastic and no doubt a beautiful spiritual experience. The energy of divinity is not restricted to those places. The energy of God and the divine will reach anyone who is open to the experience where ever they are which is also a beautiful experience. It is rather presumptious of you to think God´s realm is sooooooooooo tiny and that atheists and all your CS friends need you to pray for them because they are out of the light of faith. That is only your own perception and not the perception of God, unless you have become God´s spoke person. Which would also be rather presumptious.
you misunderstood me or i failed to write what i wanted to. i didn't try to degraded anyone's personal faith or opinion. you have rightly said this "The energy of God and the divine will reach anyone who is open to the experience where ever they are which is also a beautiful experience.". what i meant may be like this- those two places got so strong spiritual environment that even a muslim of weak faith can feel the existance of divinity over there. and about my prayer i would say-we have learnt to pray the best for someone what we choose as the best for us. faith is a gift that everyone wont receive, but at least we can pray for them. its just my faith and belief
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It does make a difference,he is a religious salesman
sirLarryIII: What difference does it make to you Mak wether people are atheists,agnostics or believers?
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mak_uits: misguidance for those who doesn't study under the guidance. if you want to be a doctor or engineer, you need to go to a medical school or engineering school. can you be a doctor or an engineer reading at home, because all the books are available in the market. likewise we have religious schools where religion is taught by those who know about it. but many muslims buy the Quran from market and starts reading, how can they realise the real meanings.
I believe you said the MAJORITY of muslims don´t understand OR try to understand the Quran. That´s a LOT of misguided muslims misguiding their families and acting in "unmuslim" ways!!! Or are you implying that ALL muslims shouls make it their carreer to study the Quran and study for years like a Doc or an engineer has to do? Doesn´t it follow that same as everyone isn´t cut out to be an engineer or a doc not everyone is cut out to study the Quran for many years? And in the case engineers and docs, both men and women can study.
mak_uits: you misunderstood me or i failed to write what i wanted to. i didn't try to degraded anyone's personal faith or opinion. you have rightly said this "The energy of God and the divine will reach anyone who is open to the experience where ever they are which is also a beautiful experience.". what i meant may be like this- those two places got so strong spiritual environment that even a muslim of weak faith can feel the existance of divinity over there. and about my prayer i would say-we have learnt to pray the best for someone what we choose as the best for us. faith is a gift that everyone wont receive, but at least we can pray for them. its just my faith and belief
I get what you mean.
I have faith but don´t feel the need to pray for those who don´t. Those who don´t, are free to choose for themselves how they want to live their lives. And it´s ok.
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end of the day..
You are entitled to your beliefs OP..me mine or not in this case.
But,
I dont start threads talking about yours, and disputing your entire belief system.
Guess I have more respect for others...godless or not.
You are entitled to your beliefs OP..me mine or not in this case.
But,
I dont start threads talking about yours, and disputing your entire belief system.
Guess I have more respect for others...godless or not.
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mak_uits: misguidance for those who doesn't study under the guidance. if you want to be a doctor or engineer, you need to go to a medical school or engineering school. can you be a doctor or an engineer reading at home, because all the books are available in the market. likewise we have religious schools where religion is taught by those who know about it. but many muslims buy the Quran from market and starts reading, how can they realise the real meanings.
you misunderstood me or i failed to write what i wanted to. i didn't try to degraded anyone's personal faith or opinion. you have rightly said this "The energy of God and the divine will reach anyone who is open to the experience where ever they are which is also a beautiful experience.". what i meant may be like this- those two places got so strong spiritual environment that even a muslim of weak faith can feel the existance of divinity over there. and about my prayer i would say-we have learnt to pray the best for someone what we choose as the best for us. faith is a gift that everyone wont receive, but at least we can pray for them. its just my faith and belief
you misunderstood me or i failed to write what i wanted to. i didn't try to degraded anyone's personal faith or opinion. you have rightly said this "The energy of God and the divine will reach anyone who is open to the experience where ever they are which is also a beautiful experience.". what i meant may be like this- those two places got so strong spiritual environment that even a muslim of weak faith can feel the existance of divinity over there. and about my prayer i would say-we have learnt to pray the best for someone what we choose as the best for us. faith is a gift that everyone wont receive, but at least we can pray for them. its just my faith and belief
Like I said. The Holy books are written BY MEN....All holy books and you choose to follow the book you blieve blindly.
Man wrote the Quoran,the Bible and the Torah and every other holy book and it is always a mans interpretation.
So to follow without question the writings of any man is foolish.
To follow without evolving and growing and recognising that religion must evolve alongside the growth of man is stupid.
The writings of any man can and must be questioned and the writings of ancient people must be looked at in todays climate.
The Quoran is one of the newer holy books compared to many and the followers of the older ones have in the most part evolved and adapted.
The idea that the Quran is current is false and the laws prescribd are no longer valid in the main.
I would like to see you address the point that MAN wrote the books and Man is fallible.
Man will always put his spin on his writings and to follow it blindly without question is totally wrong.
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bodleing: Seems like Pat has a word or two to say about that.
That ,bodleing is very good------ This thread is Archived ------
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why feel the need to educate atheists to a book they may have read and thought..that was nice..hmm next war and peace i think, then maybe great expectations..
all great ideals, titles and words..
the universe has a law..
natural law.
everything else is just theories and nice stories to keep the meek entertained and in line.
was a great idea..wish i came up with it myself..i woulda made if far more loving and far less judgemental.
It´s only the versions available to us now days that are judgemental and lacking in love (tools of control through fear).... We don´t know what the originals said ...