Towering inferno in England (258)
I've counted reports of 20 people still missing. They appear to reside in either one of two floors, or have flat numbers that are numerically close.
It's thought there may be other people who lived alone who may be missing, but haven't had friends, or family using social media to appeal for information.
Theresa May has visited fire service personnel at the scene to check they have the resources they need to begin the painstaking, dangerous and inevitably harrowing final search of the building. It has been reported that she refused to meet with residents.
It's thought there may be other people who lived alone who may be missing, but haven't had friends, or family using social media to appeal for information.
Theresa May has visited fire service personnel at the scene to check they have the resources they need to begin the painstaking, dangerous and inevitably harrowing final search of the building. It has been reported that she refused to meet with residents.
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The death toll has risen to 17.
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jac_the_gripper: The death toll has risen to 17.
VERY sad
can you imagine the elderly, disabled, sick peeps at the time not being able to save themselves IF were any.. what a way to go 
They say it was caused by a faulty fridge in one of the appartments?
London is sure copping a beating lately
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jac_the_gripper: The death toll has risen to 17.
Hello my friend, just got home from work.
Thank you.
As we all know the toll will be much greater.
I feel this will make such massive legislation changes within govt policy, of just knocking up a building, and so it should have been introduced many years ago.
I am grieving for the magnitude of this harrowing despicable act, that was taken to only, cut costs, at the tragic loss of lives.
They know who they are.
Damn right!
For all the people that died, injured, suffered.
For all the people/firepeople/ hospital people/ unknown saviors catching babies.
For all the people giving of themselves to donate.
Many more.
THE PEOPLE WILL WIN!
At the cost of these people as of the day before, we and they just went about their business.
Living their life.
Money can be an absolute evil, to the evil.
Soph
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jac_the_gripper: The death toll has risen to 17.
Thank you for these horrific updates Jac. I'm just stirring out of bed here.
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@Lookin'...
There seems to be a wide age range of people missing, but yes, two are in their 80's, one on the 20th floor with diabetes who has trouble negotiating stairs and one man with an injury who encouraged his wife and children to escape, but remained in the hope of being rescued by fire services.
One man is thought to be missing after getting his family out, but then going back to help neighbours.
Part of the issue with missing persons appears to be lack of co-ordination, or information. One man went searching for his cousin's family and found one child after begging and cajoling a nurse who took pity on him and allowed them to see a child fitting his description of her. A few beds away he recognised the child's brother, seriously unwell in a coma. Hospital staff were unaware the two children were brother and sister as people aren't being identified. The man's cousin, husband and six month baby daughter are still missing. He complained that the incident is being treated like a terrorist attack, rather than a civil disaster.
Whilst there has been quite a bit coverage of the baby being caught after being thrown from the 9th or 10th floor (a number of people are still missing from the 10th floor) it appears quite a few children were dropped out of windows by parents begging onlookers to save their children, assuming they were going to perish themselves.
There seems to be a wide age range of people missing, but yes, two are in their 80's, one on the 20th floor with diabetes who has trouble negotiating stairs and one man with an injury who encouraged his wife and children to escape, but remained in the hope of being rescued by fire services.
One man is thought to be missing after getting his family out, but then going back to help neighbours.
Part of the issue with missing persons appears to be lack of co-ordination, or information. One man went searching for his cousin's family and found one child after begging and cajoling a nurse who took pity on him and allowed them to see a child fitting his description of her. A few beds away he recognised the child's brother, seriously unwell in a coma. Hospital staff were unaware the two children were brother and sister as people aren't being identified. The man's cousin, husband and six month baby daughter are still missing. He complained that the incident is being treated like a terrorist attack, rather than a civil disaster.
Whilst there has been quite a bit coverage of the baby being caught after being thrown from the 9th or 10th floor (a number of people are still missing from the 10th floor) it appears quite a few children were dropped out of windows by parents begging onlookers to save their children, assuming they were going to perish themselves.
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2intrigued: This is so sad Is it true that the building fire alarms weren't functioning? Someone's gonna have to answer for that. I'm truly amazed at how Londoner's are coming together to help.
The cladding is the main cause, as some said. It was made of aluminium composite panels which have a polyethylene or plastic core and an aluminium coating. Burns at high temperatures.
It is a cheap building material widely used worldwide to clad high-rise apartment buildings. Perhaps it should be banned from now.
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jac_the_gripper: @Lookin'...
There seems to be a wide age range of people missing, but yes, two are in their 80's, one on the 20th floor with diabetes who has trouble negotiating stairs and one man with an injury who encouraged his wife and children to escape, but remained in the hope of being rescued by fire services.
One man is thought to be missing after getting his family out, but then going back to help neighbours.
Part of the issue with missing persons appears to be lack of co-ordination, or information. One man went searching for his cousin's family and found one child after begging and cajoling a nurse who took pity on him and allowed them to see a child fitting his description of her. A few beds away he recognised the child's brother, seriously unwell in a coma. Hospital staff were unaware the two children were brother and sister as people aren't being identified. The man's cousin, husband and six month baby daughter are still missing. He complained that the incident is being treated like a terrorist attack, rather than a civil disaster.
Whilst there has been quite a bit coverage of the baby being caught after being thrown from the 9th or 10th floor (a number of people are still missing from the 10th floor) it appears quite a few children were dropped out of windows by parents begging onlookers to save their children, assuming they were going to perish themselves.
There seems to be a wide age range of people missing, but yes, two are in their 80's, one on the 20th floor with diabetes who has trouble negotiating stairs and one man with an injury who encouraged his wife and children to escape, but remained in the hope of being rescued by fire services.
One man is thought to be missing after getting his family out, but then going back to help neighbours.
Part of the issue with missing persons appears to be lack of co-ordination, or information. One man went searching for his cousin's family and found one child after begging and cajoling a nurse who took pity on him and allowed them to see a child fitting his description of her. A few beds away he recognised the child's brother, seriously unwell in a coma. Hospital staff were unaware the two children were brother and sister as people aren't being identified. The man's cousin, husband and six month baby daughter are still missing. He complained that the incident is being treated like a terrorist attack, rather than a civil disaster.
Whilst there has been quite a bit coverage of the baby being caught after being thrown from the 9th or 10th floor (a number of people are still missing from the 10th floor) it appears quite a few children were dropped out of windows by parents begging onlookers to save their children, assuming they were going to perish themselves.
This is another tragic lesson of corporate money, guided by the evilness of another branch of cutting corners,
They are ALL accountable.
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I think the political ramifications of this may go beyond changes in fire safety legislation in residential buildings, Soph.
I suspect Theresa May couldn't risk coming into close contact with residents and volunteers for her own personal safety.
Rightly or wrongly, a lot of grief angry is being directed at the Conservative party. Anger has already spilled over in the streets directed at what has been deemed as intrusive photo-journalism and the police have had to intervene. I should imagine preparations are being made in case of riots.
We were in an unstable and potentially volatile political position after the election and before this happened.
I suspect Theresa May couldn't risk coming into close contact with residents and volunteers for her own personal safety.
Rightly or wrongly, a lot of grief angry is being directed at the Conservative party. Anger has already spilled over in the streets directed at what has been deemed as intrusive photo-journalism and the police have had to intervene. I should imagine preparations are being made in case of riots.
We were in an unstable and potentially volatile political position after the election and before this happened.
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GUZMAN1: The cladding is the main cause, as some said. It was made of aluminium composite panels which have a polyethylene or plastic core and an aluminium coating. Burns at high temperatures.
It is a cheap building material widely used worldwide to clad high-rise apartment buildings. Perhaps it should be banned from now.
It is a cheap building material widely used worldwide to clad high-rise apartment buildings. Perhaps it should be banned from now.
its difficult for me to believe manufacturers, construction engineers and permitting entities were unaware of the potential dangers for applying this type of cladding material. 
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galrads: its difficult for me to believe manufacturers, construction engineers and permitting entities were unaware of the potential dangers for applying this type of cladding material.
Perhaps it wasn't tested, or tested in better conditions.
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GUZMAN1: Perhaps it wasn't tested, or tested in better conditions.
Sounds like another Apollo 1 Fubar to me...
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I think the political ramifications of this may go beyond changes in fire safety legislation in residential buildings, Soph.
I suspect Theresa May couldn't risk coming into close contact with residents and volunteers for her own personal safety.
Rightly or wrongly, a lot of grief angry is being directed at the Conservative party. Anger has already spilled over in the streets directed at what has been deemed as intrusive photo-journalism and the police have had to intervene. I should imagine preparations are being made in case of riots.
We were in an unstable and potentially volatile political position after the election and before this happened.[/quote
You all have a lot more on your plate.
I feel for the people.
SS
I suspect Theresa May couldn't risk coming into close contact with residents and volunteers for her own personal safety.
Rightly or wrongly, a lot of grief angry is being directed at the Conservative party. Anger has already spilled over in the streets directed at what has been deemed as intrusive photo-journalism and the police have had to intervene. I should imagine preparations are being made in case of riots.
We were in an unstable and potentially volatile political position after the election and before this happened.[/quote
You all have a lot more on your plate.
I feel for the people.
SS
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I would argue that the cladding has been thoroughly tested in the most ideal conditions.
Lakanal House, a similar tower block in London to Grenfell, went up in flames in 2009 killing three women and three children.
Our Conservative government are yet to publish some information coming out of that inquiry where the rapid spread of the fire was linked to insufficient safeguarding fire blocks between floors of cladding and where the cladding burned through in 4 1/2 minutes.
There have been numerous other tower block fires across the world where a rapid spread has been linked to the external cladding.
Lakanal House, a similar tower block in London to Grenfell, went up in flames in 2009 killing three women and three children.
Our Conservative government are yet to publish some information coming out of that inquiry where the rapid spread of the fire was linked to insufficient safeguarding fire blocks between floors of cladding and where the cladding burned through in 4 1/2 minutes.
There have been numerous other tower block fires across the world where a rapid spread has been linked to the external cladding.
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Six of the dead have been provisionally identified, one man by the proximity of his passport to his remains.
Theresa May has defended her decision not to meet residents with a statement, only it appeared evasive and without explanation.
She's still coming under criticism, Harriet Harman, the former deputy Labour leader writing 'Not OK to speak at them via TV'.
As I said before, I think perhaps May's personal security might have been compromised had she come into contact with residents with emotions running so high. I do hope Labour MPs aren't manipulating this situation to their advantage in a bid to bring her down.
On the other hand, if she can't speak frankly and honestly about this, what hope do people have of an honest and open interaction regarding the catastrophic events at Grenfell?
I don:t think this is a time for political games, I'm not sure Labour politicians need to and I feel it would be damaging to the appearance of Labour integrity. As a collective nation, I think we could do with some people we feel we can trust right now.
Theresa May has defended her decision not to meet residents with a statement, only it appeared evasive and without explanation.
She's still coming under criticism, Harriet Harman, the former deputy Labour leader writing 'Not OK to speak at them via TV'.
As I said before, I think perhaps May's personal security might have been compromised had she come into contact with residents with emotions running so high. I do hope Labour MPs aren't manipulating this situation to their advantage in a bid to bring her down.
On the other hand, if she can't speak frankly and honestly about this, what hope do people have of an honest and open interaction regarding the catastrophic events at Grenfell?
I don:t think this is a time for political games, I'm not sure Labour politicians need to and I feel it would be damaging to the appearance of Labour integrity. As a collective nation, I think we could do with some people we feel we can trust right now.
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GUZMAN1: The cladding is the main cause, as some said. It was made of aluminium composite panels which have a polyethylene or plastic core and an aluminium coating. Burns at high temperatures.
It is a cheap building material widely used worldwide to clad high-rise apartment buildings. Perhaps it should be banned from now.
It is a cheap building material widely used worldwide to clad high-rise apartment buildings. Perhaps it should be banned from now.
In spite of the cladding and how it was installed being a possible reason for why the fire progressed as it had, I think if the building fire alarm system was working as it should, people would have had a much better chance of escaping.
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There's more to it than that, Debs.
In theory, each flat should be able to contain a fire for about an hour. In a block of flats like Grenfell where there is only one staircase, the 'stay put' policy would enable fire fighters free access to that staircase so they can extinguish the fire.
The stay put policy didn't work in this case because the fire spread rapidly and wasn't contained to the point of origin as it should have been.
Fire alarms would have alerted people, but their escape could have meant that the fire services were unable to access the fire. As some residents reported they couldn't use the stairs due to flames and smoke, it's possible that an evacuation might lead to crowds of people stuck on the staircase, some trying to get up away from flames, some not realising and pushing down from the top.
The issue at Grenfell was multifaceted: the fire spread in a way that it shouldn't have possibly because fire safeguards used to contain incidents were compromised during refurbishment; there was only one staircase, the council having refused to go to the expense of adding a fire escape to the 1970's building; there appears to have been little protocol for such an emergency and no drills at all; there were no fire alarms, or sprinklers and concerns had been expressed by residents about emergency lighting.
With many high rise buildings, some of which have the same cladding, some of which was fitted by the same contractors, another incident is likely to be even more disastrous as residents will likely and understandably ignore all instructions for their safety.
In theory, each flat should be able to contain a fire for about an hour. In a block of flats like Grenfell where there is only one staircase, the 'stay put' policy would enable fire fighters free access to that staircase so they can extinguish the fire.
The stay put policy didn't work in this case because the fire spread rapidly and wasn't contained to the point of origin as it should have been.
Fire alarms would have alerted people, but their escape could have meant that the fire services were unable to access the fire. As some residents reported they couldn't use the stairs due to flames and smoke, it's possible that an evacuation might lead to crowds of people stuck on the staircase, some trying to get up away from flames, some not realising and pushing down from the top.
The issue at Grenfell was multifaceted: the fire spread in a way that it shouldn't have possibly because fire safeguards used to contain incidents were compromised during refurbishment; there was only one staircase, the council having refused to go to the expense of adding a fire escape to the 1970's building; there appears to have been little protocol for such an emergency and no drills at all; there were no fire alarms, or sprinklers and concerns had been expressed by residents about emergency lighting.
With many high rise buildings, some of which have the same cladding, some of which was fitted by the same contractors, another incident is likely to be even more disastrous as residents will likely and understandably ignore all instructions for their safety.
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GUZMAN1: The cladding is the main cause, as some said. It was made of aluminium composite panels which have a polyethylene or plastic core and an aluminium coating. Burns at high temperatures.
It is a cheap building material widely used worldwide to clad high-rise apartment buildings. Perhaps it should be banned from now.
Polystyrene , is the material used in the core . Its really good for insulation , in a timber house we use it in big blocks cut to fit between rafters , easier to use than fiberglass batting . It is a cheap building material widely used worldwide to clad high-rise apartment buildings. Perhaps it should be banned from now.
I use both for other purposes , fiberglass batting for lighting fires wrapped around a green stick held on by wires or bird netting then soaked in a mix of polystyrene and petrol .
Polystyrene is the base material for the modern napalm , it can be added to aluminium dust to make it burn better .
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jac_the_gripper: There's more to it than that, Debs.
In theory, each flat should be able to contain a fire for about an hour. In a block of flats like Grenfell where there is only one staircase, the 'stay put' policy would enable fire fighters free access to that staircase so they can extinguish the fire.
The stay put policy didn't work in this case because the fire spread rapidly and wasn't contained to the point of origin as it should have been.
Fire alarms would have alerted people, but their escape could have meant that the fire services were unable to access the fire. As some residents reported they couldn't use the stairs due to flames and smoke, it's possible that an evacuation might lead to crowds of people stuck on the staircase, some trying to get up away from flames, some not realising and pushing down from the top.
The issue at Grenfell was multifaceted: the fire spread in a way that it shouldn't have possibly because fire safeguards used to contain incidents were compromised during refurbishment; there was only one staircase, the council having refused to go to the expense of adding a fire escape to the 1970's building; there appears to have been little protocol for such an emergency and no drills at all; there were no fire alarms, or sprinklers and concerns had been expressed by residents about emergency lighting.
With many high rise buildings, some of which have the same cladding, some of which was fitted by the same contractors, another incident is likely to be even more disastrous as residents will likely and understandably ignore all instructions for their safety.
In theory, each flat should be able to contain a fire for about an hour. In a block of flats like Grenfell where there is only one staircase, the 'stay put' policy would enable fire fighters free access to that staircase so they can extinguish the fire.
The stay put policy didn't work in this case because the fire spread rapidly and wasn't contained to the point of origin as it should have been.
Fire alarms would have alerted people, but their escape could have meant that the fire services were unable to access the fire. As some residents reported they couldn't use the stairs due to flames and smoke, it's possible that an evacuation might lead to crowds of people stuck on the staircase, some trying to get up away from flames, some not realising and pushing down from the top.
The issue at Grenfell was multifaceted: the fire spread in a way that it shouldn't have possibly because fire safeguards used to contain incidents were compromised during refurbishment; there was only one staircase, the council having refused to go to the expense of adding a fire escape to the 1970's building; there appears to have been little protocol for such an emergency and no drills at all; there were no fire alarms, or sprinklers and concerns had been expressed by residents about emergency lighting.
With many high rise buildings, some of which have the same cladding, some of which was fitted by the same contractors, another incident is likely to be even more disastrous as residents will likely and understandably ignore all instructions for their safety.
It sounds to me that they really need to review their building codes for fire safety....what a darn shame that a building that size has only one means of escape and was basically a death trap.
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This is so sad