Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet (845)
magna1stockholm, Stockholm Sweden33 Threads 278 PostsWell,-a never-ending topic....Amazed,-as always,-how come these "heroes" on Ships to Gaza,don´t make their way to Chechnya,Somalia,Kongo-Kinshasa,Cuba aso,aso,aso....The answer is quite simple....This is a Western "disease",-when people show their outrage,-it´s much easier to pick an easy target,-USA,EU;Israel.....When demonstrations occur here in Sweden,-it´s always the same....,-NEVER EVER can you see someone protesting against N.Korea,China,Nigeria aso....These people aren´t any philantropics,-they never condemn atrocities carried out by non-Western nations/Israel,-an easy way to gain publicity...But bottom line is,or can be:1973´s European/Arab-dialogue,-after/under Yom Kippur-war,-the Arab nations of OPEC,refused to ship any petroleum to Western nations supporting Israel...,and since then,there´s been a stranglehold on West....and now we see the result.....But eventually these nations where in need of money and western technology,-so of course they had to sell their oil...Further issues in theses dialogues where to:"Give an idealistic picture of the Islam world,spread the Arab language/culture in west,educate people to spread the knowledge of Islam,and much,much more...."So there you go....It´s not about the people in Gaza,-it´s just a part of a far wider affair...But people refuse to see that,-terrified of being called this&that....Hand on heart...everyoné´s who´s been condemning Israel on this topic,-ARE YOU Condemning North Korea,China,Saudi,Chechnya,Kongo-Kinshasa...yupp..guess not...
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magna1: When demonstrations occur here in Sweden,-it´s always the same....,-NEVER EVER can you see someone protesting against N.Korea,China,Nigeria aso....These people aren´t any philantropics,-they never condemn atrocities carried out by non-Western nations/Israel,-an easy way to gain publicity...
Prime example of red herring. Demonstrators can not have right cause because they aren't demonstrating against this and that as well.
magna1: ARE YOU Condemning North Korea,China,Saudi,Chechnya,Kongo-Kinshasa...
Absolutely! Difference however is that Israel is pretending to be somehow more civilized and democratic than the rest.
International organisations like Amnesty aren't only picking at Israel.
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SilverBirch: For someone who professes to NOT support the Israeli thugs you sure post a lot of dogma that proves otherwise.
I suppose that continually setting the facts straight is dogma in your ranting moronic sense of reality however, facts are facts and in this case, during a state of war, Israel had every right to blow those ships out of the water rather than be benevolent and board them so they could guide those misguided Hamas shills to safety. A safe harbor where the cargo could be inspected and then sent on to the poor starvinig, emancipated, disease ridden people of Gaza.
And you wanted these people all to die by breaking a blokade huh. Incredible.
SilverBirch: Stop US aid to Israel, Boycott Israel. Peace to the middle east.
The war cry of the Hamas shill.
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Albertaghost: Lilly, how many times have I told you not to post things that are either true or make sense. Their shill heads are going to explode if you you keep doing this.
Hamas is democratically elected government by people of palestinians
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emannigol: As concerned as Russians were concerned about human rights in Chechnya.
Sure. If that were the case there would be no Palestinians and lots of Israeli settlers living in Gaza right now.
emannigol:
We are talking about military acts against civilians here so whatever Hamas is doing is completely irrelevant. I don't know about you but I don't think military should be used against civilians.
We are talking about military acts against civilians here so whatever Hamas is doing is completely irrelevant. I don't know about you but I don't think military should be used against civilians.
Oh, so Al Qassam Brigades are what? They are the military arm of the government of Palestine. And they should not be deliberately trying to kill Israeli civilians.
emannigol: I wouldn't had gone there with such poor planning at first place. International waters, Turkish vessel and civilians: no place for commando team.
You probably would have done the smart thing and just blown one of the ships out of the water right? I believe this was an act of mercy and look at what the martyrs tried to do.
emannigol:
Yes, demonize your enemy and generalize it to cover whole population so there's no need to treat them humane. Exactly what what all extremists around the world are doing.
Yes, demonize your enemy and generalize it to cover whole population so there's no need to treat them humane. Exactly what what all extremists around the world are doing.
You have evidence to show Hamas is not in solid control of Gaza? Bring it forward please.
emannigol:
Just use your ad hominem tactics as much you want.
I'm not pro Hamas as I condemn terrorism. Nor I'm anti Israel even if I condemn oppression of Palestine, breaking of UN resolutions and military acts against civilians.
I have jew acquaintances and our views differ in this. Mainly because they are generalizing that Palestians are hating Jews and that's why they needn't be treated humane.
At least I don't have to use ad hominem arguments, association fallacies, generalization fallacies and smoke screens to support my opinions.
Just use your ad hominem tactics as much you want.
I'm not pro Hamas as I condemn terrorism. Nor I'm anti Israel even if I condemn oppression of Palestine, breaking of UN resolutions and military acts against civilians.
I have jew acquaintances and our views differ in this. Mainly because they are generalizing that Palestians are hating Jews and that's why they needn't be treated humane.
At least I don't have to use ad hominem arguments, association fallacies, generalization fallacies and smoke screens to support my opinions.
Well then you certainly don't speak of these atrocities and place the entire blame on Israel so, what else are people to think. If it walks like Hamas, talks like Hamas and propagandizes like Hamas - it's a shill.
And I suppose that goes for the poster just below as well. Both of you profess to be impartial however, concentrate solely on Israeli actions and not on why they are acting. Any intelligent problem solver goes to the root of the problem rather than concentrate inordinate energy on only the symptoms.
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steveurfriend: Hamas is democratically elected government by people of palestinians
Exactly and, they are popular therefore, most people in Palestine support terrorism.
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A bit off topic but here it goes anyway...
Two wrongs make a right or how it goes?
Human shields
Home search gone not so bad
Two wrongs make a right or how it goes?
Human shields
Home search gone not so bad
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emannigol:
Absolutely! Difference however is that Israel is pretending to be somehow more civilized and democratic than the rest.
Absolutely! Difference however is that Israel is pretending to be somehow more civilized and democratic than the rest.
The Democratic People's Republic of Korea
Nothing pretentious there.
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emannigol: A bit off topic but here it goes anyway...
Two wrongs make a right or how it goes?
Two wrongs make a right or how it goes?
Is that the official policy of Israel? It is for Hamas but of course, it is rather telling that you concentrate on an individual tactical action rather than the policies that guide a terrorist government and it's people.
After all, that would not please your propaganda wing.
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Albertaghost: You probably would have done the smart thing and just blown one of the ships out of the water right? I believe this was an act of mercy and look at what the martyrs tried to do.
How large crowds of possibly agitated civilians are usually controlled? With commando teams?
Albertaghost: Oh, so Al Qassam Brigades are what? They are the military arm of the government of Palestine. And they should not be deliberately trying to kill Israeli civilians... You have evidence to show Hamas is not in solid control of Gaza? Bring it forward please.
Delibrately evading to talk about IDF killing civilians? Red herring in my opinion.
Albertaghost: Well then you certainly don't speak of these atrocities and place the entire blame on Israel so, what else are people to think.
What I have spoken about so far? Military acts against civilians.
Albertaghost: Any intelligent problem solver goes to the root of the problem rather than concentrate inordinate energy on only the symptoms.
Root problem is killing of civilians. This is done both by Hamas and IDF. Hamas doing so isn't giving right for IDF to do so.
You can use it as an excuse how much you want but it's still fallacious. Two wrongs isn't making right.
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Albertaghost: Is that the official policy of Israel? It is for Hamas but of course, it is rather telling that you concentrate on an individual tactical action rather than the policies that guide a terrorist government and it's people.
After all, that would not please your propaganda wing.
After all, that would not please your propaganda wing.
Official policy is not to investigate or condemn this kind of incidents. Culprits aren't procecuted. Cencorship is also included in official policy.
Oh I forgot...
It's okay because Hamas is doing so as well.
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The question also remained as to why the passengers, if they were indeed terrorists, did not use deadlier weapons against the approaching naval launches and helicopters hovering overhead.
Alexandra Lort-Phillips, 37, an activist from Hackney, was on the Mavi Marmara when it was stormed and described seeing an Israeli soldier taken down into the stairwell below the deck where the soldiers landed.
“I went down the stairwell and there was a massive crowd of people and lots of shouting,” she said, after being deported to Istanbul.
“They had got a soldier who had boarded the ship from the roof. There was a sense of ‘My god, we’ve got an Israeli soldier’. I don’t think we really knew what we were going to do.”
“I saw a gun being taken. His gunbelt was removed and someone, I don’t know who, ran past me with the weapon and disappeared. They could have shot him but didn’t.” She said around 25 people were gathered around the soldier, who was held by his legs and stripped to his underwear as he was restrained.
“The women who were there were shouting ‘Don’t hurt him’.” Ms Lort-Phillips denied he was beaten, but said: “There were obviously some guys there who were extremely agitated by the situation. It is like you’d expect when there’s a fight between men.” As Israel desperately tried to limit the damage caused by the bloodbath on the high seas, the organisers of the aid flotilla said another boat was due to challenge the blockade and make for Gaza at the weekend.
The Rachel Corrie, an Irish-flagged ship, is named after a young American peace activist who was crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer in 2003 while trying to prevent the army from demolishing a Palestinian home in Gaza. Organisers said it was steaming straight for Gaza with Mairead Maguire, winner of an Irish Nobel Peace Prize, on board.
Alexandra Lort-Phillips, 37, an activist from Hackney, was on the Mavi Marmara when it was stormed and described seeing an Israeli soldier taken down into the stairwell below the deck where the soldiers landed.
“I went down the stairwell and there was a massive crowd of people and lots of shouting,” she said, after being deported to Istanbul.
“They had got a soldier who had boarded the ship from the roof. There was a sense of ‘My god, we’ve got an Israeli soldier’. I don’t think we really knew what we were going to do.”
“I saw a gun being taken. His gunbelt was removed and someone, I don’t know who, ran past me with the weapon and disappeared. They could have shot him but didn’t.” She said around 25 people were gathered around the soldier, who was held by his legs and stripped to his underwear as he was restrained.
“The women who were there were shouting ‘Don’t hurt him’.” Ms Lort-Phillips denied he was beaten, but said: “There were obviously some guys there who were extremely agitated by the situation. It is like you’d expect when there’s a fight between men.” As Israel desperately tried to limit the damage caused by the bloodbath on the high seas, the organisers of the aid flotilla said another boat was due to challenge the blockade and make for Gaza at the weekend.
The Rachel Corrie, an Irish-flagged ship, is named after a young American peace activist who was crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer in 2003 while trying to prevent the army from demolishing a Palestinian home in Gaza. Organisers said it was steaming straight for Gaza with Mairead Maguire, winner of an Irish Nobel Peace Prize, on board.
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Albertaghost: After all, that would not please your propaganda wing.
BBC news is also well known broadcaster of propaganda. Especially antisemitistic.
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emannigol: BBC news is also well known broadcaster of propaganda. Especially antisemitistic.
Really?? How do you know that?
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emannigol: How large crowds of possibly agitated civilians are usually controlled? With commando teams?
Riot police however, fast roping to a ship is a commando task.
emannigol:
Delibrately evading to talk about IDF killing civilians? Red herring in my opinion.
Delibrately evading to talk about IDF killing civilians? Red herring in my opinion.
I believe we have talked about that and you find nothing worth discussing about the government of Hamas and it's military deliberatley using their own people as tools of propaganda and human shields.
emannigol:
What I have spoken about so far? Military acts against civilians.
Root problem is killing of civilians.
What I have spoken about so far? Military acts against civilians.
Root problem is killing of civilians.
The root cause is lack of good will to make peace. Palestinians want land they lost when they made war on Israel along with the Arab world in 1948. They have continually done so and, locked themselves into a cycle which is difficult if not impossible to break out of. The current action is to use their own people as a weapon for propaganda where if they are not harmed, they win and if they are harmed, they also win. Your 'root' problem comes into play at this later point as a tactical action resulting from Hamas hiding amongst their own people and, their own people aiding them. In any case, it is certainly not the root problem or even close to it.
emannigol: This is done both by Hamas and IDF. Hamas doing so isn't giving right for IDF to do so.
Israel has the right to search and neutralize those who terrorize it's citizens. They have the right to destroy property that was used in the commission of these acts and those who attempt to stop them.
emannigol: You can use it as an excuse how much you want but it's still fallacious. Two wrongs isn't making right.
If one is not wrong then you end up with one.
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DodgeBabe: Really?? How do you know that?
Sarcasm.
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emannigol: Sarcasm.
Had not bothered to trawl through the thread, and thought you were being serious..
Good for you; I like sarcasm!
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Albertaghost: I believe we have talked about that and you find nothing worth discussing about the government of Hamas and it's military deliberatley using their own people as tools of propaganda and human shields.
They are considered as terrorist organisation while Israel is not. Terrorism is something which is condemned. So is military action against civilians. I am condemning both. You are making later justified because of former. I have shown that reasoning fallacious.
Albertaghost: The root cause is lack of good will to make peace.
From both sides.
Albertaghost: Israel has the right to search and neutralize those who terrorize it's citizens. They have the right to destroy property that was used in the commission of these acts and those who attempt to stop them.
Like home in the video?
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emannigol: They are considered as terrorist organisation while Israel is not.
They are also a democratically elected government which puts a handle and, some responsibilities on this particular terrorist organization.
emannigol:
Terrorism is something which is condemned. So is military action against civilians. I am condemning both.
Terrorism is something which is condemned. So is military action against civilians. I am condemning both.
When Israel marches into Gaza and says, "Hand over your civilians or we'll blow up some terrorists" then I will back yuou up. Right now, they do not delieberately kill civilians as a mattrer of governmental policy.
emannigol: You are making later justified because of former. I have shown that reasoning fallacious.
No I'm not. I'm simply exposing your one dimensional thinking.
emannigol:
From both sides.
From both sides.
At last! Common ground.
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emannigol: BBC news is also well known broadcaster of propaganda. Especially antisemitistic.
Do you have any hard evidence to prove the above statement?
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