Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet (845)
alfibarios: Come on!!!
The Flottia was planned by people with links to Hamas, we all now that now
so what??
noone poved they cay anything else than medicine staff and foods.
is it so bad???
and who gave isael the right to attack on europeans who wanted to visit another country, or even the right to ask them to quit their plans???
The Flottia was planned by people with links to Hamas, we all now that now
so what??
noone poved they cay anything else than medicine staff and foods.
is it so bad???
and who gave isael the right to attack on europeans who wanted to visit another country, or even the right to ask them to quit their plans???
Ships are in international waters within Israels defense zone and, had been warned for the weeks prior and, right up to the time of boarding. Been done many times before so why the outrage now?
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the ships wer at worst full of would be terrorists or at best full of the bleeding heart looney left brigade
either way blow them out of the water i say
either way blow them out of the water i say
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blipper2000: stage managed by turkey
Turkey is going to end up like Iran,if they're not careful!
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Albertaghost: Ships are in international waters within Israels defense zone and, had been warned for the weeks prior and, right up to the time of boarding. Been done many times before so why the outrage now?
They dont answer awkward question, as the truth is not what they seek.
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Conrad73: Turkey is going to end up like Iran,if they're not careful!
hopefully there are still plenty of liberal minded people left in turkey------ This thread is Archived ------
Albertaghost: Gaza–Jericho Agreement (Annex I, Article XI) which vests Israel with the responsibility for security along the coastline and the Sea of Gaza. The agreement stipulates that Israel may take any measures necessary against vessels suspected of being used for terrorist activities or for smuggling arms, ammunition, drugs, goods, or for any other illegal activity.
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Western Media Forgets to Mention That ‘Gaza Flotilla’ Is a Terror-Linked Organization (Video)
by Jim Hoft
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Conrad73: http://biggovernment.com/tag/bulent-yildirim/Western Media Forgets to Mention That ‘Gaza Flotilla’ Is a Terror-Linked Organization (Video)
by Jim Hoft
by Jim Hoft
Its funny how all the "I hate Israel" brigade have disappeared...
They had some mileage with the gullible when they hide the truth.
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Costapacket: Its funny how all the "I hate Israel" brigade have disappeared...
They had some mileage with the gullible when they hide the truth.
They had some mileage with the gullible when they hide the truth.
My trust is in those I know I will still be standing with, and theirs....personal passions, and ease by which they are gained, enjoyed.------ This thread is Archived ------
Costapacket: Its funny how all the "I hate Israel" brigade have disappeared...
They had some mileage with the gullible when they hide the truth.
Don't worry,they'll crawl out of the Woodwork again!They had some mileage with the gullible when they hide the truth.
It is only getting Evening in some places.
Other places are about to start the day!
You'll soon see them again!
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Conrad73: Don't worry,they'll crawl out of the Woodwork again!
It is only getting Evening in some places.
Other places are about to start the day!
You'll soon see them again!
It is only getting Evening in some places.
Other places are about to start the day!
You'll soon see them again!
The come in cycles here depending on the time, or not as in one particular case!
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Well I am pretty sure that people that were on this boats: numbers of German parliament, Nobel prize winner and others are not persons who have mental and intellectual tendencies and needs to be provocateurs.
But why provocation of Israel or anybody else at all?
Couldn't it be something else?
Perhaps, way how to pay attention of the world on what is happening in Gaza?
Or the way how to show that international order and law are not functioning.
Or that politicians are not interested or capable to find the solution.
Or that could be done something.
Or .............
Israel knows that he has done something stupid and now is searching for explanations trying on a cheap way to attack by accusations.
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First, that's not what they said.
They said that help must go across them not UN.
But, who the hell i Israel that he take him right to intercept international boats in international waters ?
The same way they can took them right to intercept ships all around Mediterranean or Atlantic ocean.
Stupid and unacceptable.
And have you seen how they did this?
It was not done in a way in which such interceptions had to be done according to the conditions of International maritime law.
That was attack, not interception, and attack in a way in which special units attack terrorists and objects in which they are. There are no doubts that if MOSAD knew that those ships are going to Gaza that than they knew also who is on them, unarmed peace activists or armed theorists.
Believe me, they knew their names, days of birth, how many dents they have and so on, who they are but, they attacked all the same and than, this is the message to the world, bad but message.
But why provocation of Israel or anybody else at all?
Couldn't it be something else?
Perhaps, way how to pay attention of the world on what is happening in Gaza?
Or the way how to show that international order and law are not functioning.
Or that politicians are not interested or capable to find the solution.
Or that could be done something.
Or .............
Israel knows that he has done something stupid and now is searching for explanations trying on a cheap way to attack by accusations.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;,,,
First, that's not what they said.
They said that help must go across them not UN.
But, who the hell i Israel that he take him right to intercept international boats in international waters ?
The same way they can took them right to intercept ships all around Mediterranean or Atlantic ocean.
Stupid and unacceptable.
And have you seen how they did this?
It was not done in a way in which such interceptions had to be done according to the conditions of International maritime law.
That was attack, not interception, and attack in a way in which special units attack terrorists and objects in which they are. There are no doubts that if MOSAD knew that those ships are going to Gaza that than they knew also who is on them, unarmed peace activists or armed theorists.
Believe me, they knew their names, days of birth, how many dents they have and so on, who they are but, they attacked all the same and than, this is the message to the world, bad but message.
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Knowing something more about how are going things in Israel army I know that its, nonofficial but " on duty" doctrine is that only dead Palestinian is good Palestinian.
According to this none in this "army" wasn't called on responsibility for the war crimes that were done at Gaza in last attack on it and which we all have seen to be committed.
Tizi Lipi can talk what she wants, but we have seen what we have seen.
It's impossible to imagine that Israel can annihilate each Palestinian not because this is something that they don't wont but because they are not allowed to do, primary by U.S.
But, they are also afraid of reactions of simple people all around the world which are, as you can see, more and more negative for Israel with tendency of growth, even to radical antisemitism as Europa has already seen in 19th and first half of 20th century.
Angry people can press their governments to change their politics against such Israel and what than ?
To such Israel as he is now could happen that one day he will wake up alone surrounded with hostile world and sanitary cordon as it did to South Africa, North Korea, etc.
So they are trying to do this in another way. It takes more time but could be done. For 50, 100 or more years who cares. They been waiting for their state couple of millenniums so they can be patient for a couple hundred years more.
Rome was not build in one day, true?
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Please try to remember what happened in Jordan when Palestinians were forced in enormous number to escape there and what finished with civilian war in Jordan in 1970 - 71.
Black September, you remember.
Egypt is potentially the only one really dangerous neighbor to Israel and Israel has inters to weaken him in any way, economically, politically , military.. everything is welcome. To export 1.5 million Palestinians to him from Gaza, together with Hammas, Al Fatah , if it succeeded, Bingo!
Egypt knows that and this is one of the reason why he so merrily closed the doors . For them is better that Israels have headache then them.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;,
You have heard wrong. The defense area is not 200 miles.
- With so far declared defense area Israel will enter in territorial waters of Turkey, Egypt, Cyprus, not sure, maybe even Greece .
- Israel has to declare war to somebody and for him he can declare how much he wants big "no float " zone, he cant attack everything that is floating in international waters.
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That happens when somebody take him rights which he don't have and is called: crime.
Nine persons are killed.
Unarmed civilians are killed by special trained and hard armored professionals 76 miles far from Israel soil.
This is mass homicide. Somebody must be responsible, somebody must be sent ti International court of justice at Den Haag.
Knowing something more about how are going things in Israel army I know that its, nonofficial but " on duty" doctrine is that only dead Palestinian is good Palestinian.
According to this none in this "army" wasn't called on responsibility for the war crimes that were done at Gaza in last attack on it and which we all have seen to be committed.
Tizi Lipi can talk what she wants, but we have seen what we have seen.
It's impossible to imagine that Israel can annihilate each Palestinian not because this is something that they don't wont but because they are not allowed to do, primary by U.S.
But, they are also afraid of reactions of simple people all around the world which are, as you can see, more and more negative for Israel with tendency of growth, even to radical antisemitism as Europa has already seen in 19th and first half of 20th century.
Angry people can press their governments to change their politics against such Israel and what than ?
To such Israel as he is now could happen that one day he will wake up alone surrounded with hostile world and sanitary cordon as it did to South Africa, North Korea, etc.
So they are trying to do this in another way. It takes more time but could be done. For 50, 100 or more years who cares. They been waiting for their state couple of millenniums so they can be patient for a couple hundred years more.
Rome was not build in one day, true?
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;,
Please try to remember what happened in Jordan when Palestinians were forced in enormous number to escape there and what finished with civilian war in Jordan in 1970 - 71.
Black September, you remember.
Egypt is potentially the only one really dangerous neighbor to Israel and Israel has inters to weaken him in any way, economically, politically , military.. everything is welcome. To export 1.5 million Palestinians to him from Gaza, together with Hammas, Al Fatah , if it succeeded, Bingo!
Egypt knows that and this is one of the reason why he so merrily closed the doors . For them is better that Israels have headache then them.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;,
You have heard wrong. The defense area is not 200 miles.
- With so far declared defense area Israel will enter in territorial waters of Turkey, Egypt, Cyprus, not sure, maybe even Greece .
- Israel has to declare war to somebody and for him he can declare how much he wants big "no float " zone, he cant attack everything that is floating in international waters.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;,,,,
That happens when somebody take him rights which he don't have and is called: crime.
Nine persons are killed.
Unarmed civilians are killed by special trained and hard armored professionals 76 miles far from Israel soil.
This is mass homicide. Somebody must be responsible, somebody must be sent ti International court of justice at Den Haag.
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Professor of Int'l Law speaking on the radio today, indicating that Israel did have the legal right to board the ship, but, only if they were acting during a state of war/emergency/etc.
The law preventing nations from stopping, boarding, inspecting, whatever ships on international waters applies only in 'Times of Peace'. For those in Gaza, who do not consider themselves 'at war', from their view, they should be protected by this law. For those in Israel, who have clear intentions against Hammas in Gaza, they are correct from their viewpoint.
Thoughts?
The law preventing nations from stopping, boarding, inspecting, whatever ships on international waters applies only in 'Times of Peace'. For those in Gaza, who do not consider themselves 'at war', from their view, they should be protected by this law. For those in Israel, who have clear intentions against Hammas in Gaza, they are correct from their viewpoint.
Thoughts?
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Barrellofart: Professor of Int'l Law speaking on the radio today, indicating that Israel did have the legal right to board the ship, but, only if they were acting during a state of war/emergency/etc.
The law preventing nations from stopping, boarding, inspecting, whatever ships on international waters applies only in 'Times of Peace'. For those in Gaza, who do not consider themselves 'at war', from their view, they should be protected by this law. For those in Israel, who have clear intentions against Hammas in Gaza, they are correct from their viewpoint.
Thoughts?
Gaza–Jericho Agreement (Annex I, Article XI) which vests Israel with the responsibility for security along the coastline and the Sea of Gaza. The agreement stipulates that Israel may take any measures necessary against vessels suspected of being used for terrorist activities or for smuggling arms, ammunition, drugs, goods, or for any other illegal activity. The law preventing nations from stopping, boarding, inspecting, whatever ships on international waters applies only in 'Times of Peace'. For those in Gaza, who do not consider themselves 'at war', from their view, they should be protected by this law. For those in Israel, who have clear intentions against Hammas in Gaza, they are correct from their viewpoint.
Thoughts?
Posted a page or two back by Albertaghost.
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Conrad73: Gaza–Jericho Agreement (Annex I, Article XI) which vests Israel with the responsibility for security along the coastline and the Sea of Gaza. The agreement stipulates that Israel may take any measures necessary against vessels suspected of being used for terrorist activities or for smuggling arms, ammunition, drugs, goods, or for any other illegal activity. Posted a page or two back by Albertaghost.
Well there you go.
Cheers.
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The Geneva Convention
It is widely accepted that under international law, the Jewish settlements in the territories occupied by Israel in 1967 are illegal.
Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war states: "The occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own population into the territories it occupies."
Within the international community the overwhelming view is that Article 49 is applicable to the occupation of the West Bank including East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights.
Almost the entire international community, including allies of Israel, have referred to the situation in these territories as occupation.
The position that the 4th Geneva Convention does apply to the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights is supported by the International Committee of the Red Cross, UN bodies, and the International Court of Justice.
Israel is a party to the Geneva Conventions, and bound by its obligations.
But its government argues that the international conventions relating to occupied land do not apply to the Palestinian territories because they were not under the legitimate sovereignty of any state in the first place.
Israel has over the years often chosen to use the term administered territories to refer to Gaza and the West Bank. It has annexed the Golan and East Jerusalem.
Israel therefore denies the formal, de jure, applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention in the occupied territories.
Israel does formally accept the applicability of the Hague Regulations on occupation, and says it is acting under authority granted to an occupying power in international law (including in provisions of the 4th Geneva Convention). The 4th Geneva Convention and the Hague Regulations contain detailed rules on the administration of occupied territory.
The Israeli Supreme Court (sitting as High Court of Justice in Beit Sourik Village Council v The Government of Israel 2004) has noted: "The general point of departure of all parties - which is also our point of departure - is that Israel holds the area in belligerent occupation (occupatio bellica)."
It is widely accepted that under international law, the Jewish settlements in the territories occupied by Israel in 1967 are illegal.
Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war states: "The occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own population into the territories it occupies."
Within the international community the overwhelming view is that Article 49 is applicable to the occupation of the West Bank including East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights.
Almost the entire international community, including allies of Israel, have referred to the situation in these territories as occupation.
The position that the 4th Geneva Convention does apply to the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights is supported by the International Committee of the Red Cross, UN bodies, and the International Court of Justice.
Israel is a party to the Geneva Conventions, and bound by its obligations.
But its government argues that the international conventions relating to occupied land do not apply to the Palestinian territories because they were not under the legitimate sovereignty of any state in the first place.
Israel has over the years often chosen to use the term administered territories to refer to Gaza and the West Bank. It has annexed the Golan and East Jerusalem.
Israel therefore denies the formal, de jure, applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention in the occupied territories.
Israel does formally accept the applicability of the Hague Regulations on occupation, and says it is acting under authority granted to an occupying power in international law (including in provisions of the 4th Geneva Convention). The 4th Geneva Convention and the Hague Regulations contain detailed rules on the administration of occupied territory.
The Israeli Supreme Court (sitting as High Court of Justice in Beit Sourik Village Council v The Government of Israel 2004) has noted: "The general point of departure of all parties - which is also our point of departure - is that Israel holds the area in belligerent occupation (occupatio bellica)."
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sharmini: The Geneva Convention
It is widely accepted that under international law, the Jewish settlements in the territories occupied by Israel in 1967 are illegal.
Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war states: "The occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own population into the territories it occupies."
Within the international community the overwhelming view is that Article 49 is applicable to the occupation of the West Bank including East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights.
Almost the entire international community, including allies of Israel, have referred to the situation in these territories as occupation.
The position that the 4th Geneva Convention does apply to the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights is supported by the International Committee of the Red Cross, UN bodies, and the International Court of Justice.
Israel is a party to the Geneva Conventions, and bound by its obligations.
But its government argues that the international conventions relating to occupied land do not apply to the Palestinian territories because they were not under the legitimate sovereignty of any state in the first place.
Israel has over the years often chosen to use the term administered territories to refer to Gaza and the West Bank. It has annexed the Golan and East Jerusalem.
Israel therefore denies the formal, de jure, applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention in the occupied territories.
Israel does formally accept the applicability of the Hague Regulations on occupation, and says it is acting under authority granted to an occupying power in international law (including in provisions of the 4th Geneva Convention). The 4th Geneva Convention and the Hague Regulations contain detailed rules on the administration of occupied territory.
The Israeli Supreme Court (sitting as High Court of Justice in Beit Sourik Village Council v The Government of Israel 2004) has noted: "The general point of departure of all parties - which is also our point of departure - is that Israel holds the area in belligerent occupation (occupatio bellica)."
It is widely accepted that under international law, the Jewish settlements in the territories occupied by Israel in 1967 are illegal.
Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war states: "The occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own population into the territories it occupies."
Within the international community the overwhelming view is that Article 49 is applicable to the occupation of the West Bank including East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights.
Almost the entire international community, including allies of Israel, have referred to the situation in these territories as occupation.
The position that the 4th Geneva Convention does apply to the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights is supported by the International Committee of the Red Cross, UN bodies, and the International Court of Justice.
Israel is a party to the Geneva Conventions, and bound by its obligations.
But its government argues that the international conventions relating to occupied land do not apply to the Palestinian territories because they were not under the legitimate sovereignty of any state in the first place.
Israel has over the years often chosen to use the term administered territories to refer to Gaza and the West Bank. It has annexed the Golan and East Jerusalem.
Israel therefore denies the formal, de jure, applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention in the occupied territories.
Israel does formally accept the applicability of the Hague Regulations on occupation, and says it is acting under authority granted to an occupying power in international law (including in provisions of the 4th Geneva Convention). The 4th Geneva Convention and the Hague Regulations contain detailed rules on the administration of occupied territory.
The Israeli Supreme Court (sitting as High Court of Justice in Beit Sourik Village Council v The Government of Israel 2004) has noted: "The general point of departure of all parties - which is also our point of departure - is that Israel holds the area in belligerent occupation (occupatio bellica)."
I'm sorry, I don't see how this applies to the situation.
Of course, I admit to being underinformed, but this seems to be strictly about the 'status' of the occupied areas, as seen by any number of countries or conventions.
We're not talking about whether Gaza is occupied or administered, but rather whether Israel has the right to defend itself, or the coast, from potential terrorist schemes, no?
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Earlier today, Taoiseach (Irish prime minister)Brian Cowen warned there would be “most serious consequences” should any harm come to Irish citizens involved with an aid flotilla destined for Gaza.
Both Mr Cowen and Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin called on Israel to allow Irish humanitarian ship, the MV Rachel Corrie , pass through its military blockade of Gaza.
The cargo vessel is ploughing ahead with its attempt to deliver aid to Gaza despite yesterday’s deadly attack by the Israeli navy on a Gaza-bound flotilla.
Mr Cowen called today called for the immediate establishment of "a full, independent international inquiry into yesterday’s events, preferably under UN auspices”.
He called on Israel to release "unconditionally" Irish citizens who he said had been taken to Gaza by the Israeli authorities and asked to sign papers allowing for their deportation.
Speaking in the Dáil during Leaders' Questions, the Taoiseach said said the presence of Irish diplomatic personnel in Israel provided "better prospects" that the citizens would be released "sooner rather than later"
"But I will make this point. If any harm comes to any of our citizens, it will have the most serious consequences.”
Mr Cowen said Ireland’s longstanding position was that the Israeli blockade of Gaza was “immoral and counterproductive” and should be ended.
“Israel must listen and respond to the clear concerns of the international community on this issue. To do otherwise will only serve to reinforce the position of the extremists on both sides and jeopardise the hope of achieving some urgently needed political progress in the region, which the current proximity talks represent," he said.
The Israeli army has warned that it will be stopped if it attempts to enter Israeli waters.
The Rachel Corrie, which has five Irish nationals and five Malaysians aboard, is due to arrive in Gazan waters over the coming days, a spokeswoman for the Irish Palestine Solidarity Campaign said. It became separated from the main aid flotilla after being delayed for 48 hours in Malta due to logistical reasons, and is currently off the coast of Libya.
Mr Martin, who called Israeli Ambassador Dr Zion Evrony to a meeting yesterday, said the boat should be allowed through peacefully.
Mr Martin said Israel was also obliged to respect its international obligations under the Vienna Convention and ensure Irish citizens have access to full consular support. He also expressed his condolences to the Turkish government and the families of the people killed when Israeli commandos raided the Turkish registered Mavi Marmara aid ship in international waters...
Nobel laureate Maireád Corrigan-Maguire, former UN assistant secretary general Denis Halliday, film maker Fiona Thompson and husband and wife Derek and Jenny Graham are the Irish nationals on board the Rachel Corrie.
Speaking from the ship today, Mr Graham said the vessel was carrying educational materials, construction materials, medical equipment and some toys. “Everything aboard has been inspected in Ireland,” he said. “We would hope to have safe passage through.”
However, an Israeli marine lieutenant, who was not identified, told Israel's army radio his unit was prepared to block the Rachel Corrie. "We as a unit are studying, and we will carry out professional investigations to reach conclusions," the lieutenant said, referring to yesterday's confrontation. "And we will also be ready for the Rachel Corrie ," he added.
(source: irish times)
Both Mr Cowen and Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin called on Israel to allow Irish humanitarian ship, the MV Rachel Corrie , pass through its military blockade of Gaza.
The cargo vessel is ploughing ahead with its attempt to deliver aid to Gaza despite yesterday’s deadly attack by the Israeli navy on a Gaza-bound flotilla.
Mr Cowen called today called for the immediate establishment of "a full, independent international inquiry into yesterday’s events, preferably under UN auspices”.
He called on Israel to release "unconditionally" Irish citizens who he said had been taken to Gaza by the Israeli authorities and asked to sign papers allowing for their deportation.
Speaking in the Dáil during Leaders' Questions, the Taoiseach said said the presence of Irish diplomatic personnel in Israel provided "better prospects" that the citizens would be released "sooner rather than later"
"But I will make this point. If any harm comes to any of our citizens, it will have the most serious consequences.”
Mr Cowen said Ireland’s longstanding position was that the Israeli blockade of Gaza was “immoral and counterproductive” and should be ended.
“Israel must listen and respond to the clear concerns of the international community on this issue. To do otherwise will only serve to reinforce the position of the extremists on both sides and jeopardise the hope of achieving some urgently needed political progress in the region, which the current proximity talks represent," he said.
The Israeli army has warned that it will be stopped if it attempts to enter Israeli waters.
The Rachel Corrie, which has five Irish nationals and five Malaysians aboard, is due to arrive in Gazan waters over the coming days, a spokeswoman for the Irish Palestine Solidarity Campaign said. It became separated from the main aid flotilla after being delayed for 48 hours in Malta due to logistical reasons, and is currently off the coast of Libya.
Mr Martin, who called Israeli Ambassador Dr Zion Evrony to a meeting yesterday, said the boat should be allowed through peacefully.
Mr Martin said Israel was also obliged to respect its international obligations under the Vienna Convention and ensure Irish citizens have access to full consular support. He also expressed his condolences to the Turkish government and the families of the people killed when Israeli commandos raided the Turkish registered Mavi Marmara aid ship in international waters...
Nobel laureate Maireád Corrigan-Maguire, former UN assistant secretary general Denis Halliday, film maker Fiona Thompson and husband and wife Derek and Jenny Graham are the Irish nationals on board the Rachel Corrie.
Speaking from the ship today, Mr Graham said the vessel was carrying educational materials, construction materials, medical equipment and some toys. “Everything aboard has been inspected in Ireland,” he said. “We would hope to have safe passage through.”
However, an Israeli marine lieutenant, who was not identified, told Israel's army radio his unit was prepared to block the Rachel Corrie. "We as a unit are studying, and we will carry out professional investigations to reach conclusions," the lieutenant said, referring to yesterday's confrontation. "And we will also be ready for the Rachel Corrie ," he added.
(source: irish times)
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The Flottia was planned by people with links to Hamas, we all now that now
so what??
noone poved they cay anything else than medicine staff and foods.
is it so bad???
and who gave isael the right to attack on europeans who wanted to visit another country, or even the right to ask them to quit their plans???
Nothing wrong in my opinion with medicine and foods getting through, Israel said this also.
Why are you being so defensive?
Is it because nobody wanted to admit the truth as it doesnt suit you hate agenda?