Zionist Occupied America (878)
Blues63: Thanks for the obvious.
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patmac: Nope just a viewpoint from someone who reads both sides of an argument and looks at all the points concerned.
And like I said less than 15% has little or no power in any democratic government. And the USA is supposedly that.
So to base your argument on 1 book you have not got? Is not a broad or well based platform for any real point.
Then you will have no problem in reading the book for yourself and letting the "both sides of the argument" part of your brain make a logical conclusion.And like I said less than 15% has little or no power in any democratic government. And the USA is supposedly that.
So to base your argument on 1 book you have not got? Is not a broad or well based platform for any real point.
I can get that book back any time I choose but being the polite chap I am, I choose not cutail her enlightenment at this stage.
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Blues63: Thanks for the obvious.
The author's agendas..
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Blues63: Well, an academic treatise would avoid such sentiments.
Alas I am a humble stone mason and farmer and my old man didnt think much about instilling academic treatise abilities when I was at an impressionable stage.------ This thread is Archived ------
gleneagle: Then you will have no problem in reading the book for yourself and letting the "both sides of the argument" part of your brain make a logical conclusion.
I can get that book back any time I choose but being the polite chap I am, I choose not cutail her enlightenment at this stage.
I can get that book back any time I choose but being the polite chap I am, I choose not cutail her enlightenment at this stage.
Meantime try reading other books from other sources and get a balanced outlook.
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patmac: Meantime try reading other books from other sources and get a balanced outlook.
Which one do you think would be best suited to advancing my academic balancing.
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patmac: Meantime try reading other books from other sources and get a balanced outlook.
Which one do you think would be best suited to advancing my academic balancing.------ This thread is Archived ------
Paldi5: The author's agendas..
Agendas? Biographies to be accurate.
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Paldi5: The author's agendas..
And the video ... again
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gleneagle: Which one do you think would be best suited to advancing my academic balancing.
Ah you see we differ there I read numerous books not just one,also on numerous subjects as very often they inter relate.Try it sometime
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Paldi5: The author's agendas..
Harvard's Paper on Israel Called 'Trash' By Solon
"The paper also drew fire from Cambridge, Mass. One day after Kennedy School scholar Marvin Kalb lambasted the paper's authors for failing to meet basic quality standards for academic research, another Harvard professor, Ruth Wisse, called for the Kennedy School to withdraw the paper until the authors remedy their "poor scholarship."
The paper, "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy," was written by the Kennedy School's Stephen Walt and a political science professor and the codirector of the Program on International Security Policy at the University of Chicago, John Mearsheimer, and published by the Kennedy School.
In the 83-page "working paper," the professors allege that a vast network of journalists, think tanks, lobbyists, and largely Jewish officials have seized the foreign-policy debate and manipulated America to invade Iraq."
"manipulated America to invade Iraq"
Strange. Yesterday Silverbirch gave out a bunch of political names he said were 'owned' by Israel and out of them, more than a third voted against the invasion of Iraq.
"Yet the assessment of Rep. Eliot Engel, a Democrat of New York who is Jewish, was that the paper "really deserves the contempt of the American people," and that it amounts to "the same old anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist drivel."
"Given what happened in the Holocaust, it's shameful that people would write reports like this," the congressman said."
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The Israel Lobby?
By Noam Chomsky
"But recognizing that M-W took a courageous stand, which merits praise, we still have to ask how convincing their thesis is. Not very, in my opinion.
Has it been a failure for US grand strategy based on control of what the State Department described 60 years ago as the "stupendous source of strategic power" of ME oil and the immense wealth from this unparalleled "material prize"? Hardly.
The US has substantially maintained control -- and the significant reverses, such as the overthrow of the Shah, were not the result of the initiatives of the Lobby. And as noted, the energy corporations prospered.
That at once raises another question about the M-W thesis. What were "the Lobbies" that led to pursuing very similar policies throughout the world?
When we do investigate (1), we find that US policies in the ME are quite similar to those pursued elsewhere in the world.
Take, as one example, arms sales to China, which they bring up as undercutting US interests. But they fail to mention that when the US objected, Israel was compelled to back down: under Clinton in 2000, and again in 2005, in this case with the Washington neocon regime going out of its way to humiliate Israel. Without a peep from The Lobby, in either case, though it was a serious blow to Israel. Reagan ordered Israel to call off the invasion, then entered to complete the removal of the PLO from Lebanon.
Another problem that M-W do not address is the role of the energy corporations. They are hardly marginal in US political life -- transparently in the Bush administration, but in fact always. How can they be so impotent in the face of the Lobby? As ME scholar Stephen Zunes has rightly pointed out, "there are far more powerful interests that have a stake in what happens in the Persian Gulf region than does AIPAC [or the Lobby generally], such as the oil companies, the arms industry and other special interests whose lobbying influence and campaign contributions far surpass that of the much-vaunted Zionist lobby and its allied donors to congressional races."
Also to be explained, again, is why US ME policy is so similar to its policies elsewhere -- to which, incidentally, Israel has made important contributions, e.g., in helping the executive branch to evade congressional barriers to carrying out massive terror in Central America, to evade embargoes against South Africa and Rhodesia, and much else."
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Blues63: Agendas? Biographies to be accurate.
Biographies point to agendas often, that's all.
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If I hear the word Israel just one more time .......
I'm gonna .......!!
I'm gonna .......!!
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Albertaghost: http://www.zcommunications.org/the-israel-lobby-by-noam-chomsky
The Israel Lobby?
By Noam Chomsky
"But recognizing that M-W took a courageous stand, which merits praise, we still have to ask how convincing their thesis is. Not very, in my opinion.
Has it been a failure for US grand strategy based on control of what the State Department described 60 years ago as the "stupendous source of strategic power" of ME oil and the immense wealth from this unparalleled "material prize"? Hardly.
The US has substantially maintained control -- and the significant reverses, such as the overthrow of the Shah, were not the result of the initiatives of the Lobby. And as noted, the energy corporations prospered.
That at once raises another question about the M-W thesis. What were "the Lobbies" that led to pursuing very similar policies throughout the world?
When we do investigate (1), we find that US policies in the ME are quite similar to those pursued elsewhere in the world.
Take, as one example, arms sales to China, which they bring up as undercutting US interests. But they fail to mention that when the US objected, Israel was compelled to back down: under Clinton in 2000, and again in 2005, in this case with the Washington neocon regime going out of its way to humiliate Israel. Without a peep from The Lobby, in either case, though it was a serious blow to Israel. Reagan ordered Israel to call off the invasion, then entered to complete the removal of the PLO from Lebanon.
Another problem that M-W do not address is the role of the energy corporations. They are hardly marginal in US political life -- transparently in the Bush administration, but in fact always. How can they be so impotent in the face of the Lobby? As ME scholar Stephen Zunes has rightly pointed out, "there are far more powerful interests that have a stake in what happens in the Persian Gulf region than does AIPAC [or the Lobby generally], such as the oil companies, the arms industry and other special interests whose lobbying influence and campaign contributions far surpass that of the much-vaunted Zionist lobby and its allied donors to congressional races."
Also to be explained, again, is why US ME policy is so similar to its policies elsewhere -- to which, incidentally, Israel has made important contributions, e.g., in helping the executive branch to evade congressional barriers to carrying out massive terror in Central America, to evade embargoes against South Africa and Rhodesia, and much else."
The Israel Lobby?
By Noam Chomsky
"But recognizing that M-W took a courageous stand, which merits praise, we still have to ask how convincing their thesis is. Not very, in my opinion.
Has it been a failure for US grand strategy based on control of what the State Department described 60 years ago as the "stupendous source of strategic power" of ME oil and the immense wealth from this unparalleled "material prize"? Hardly.
The US has substantially maintained control -- and the significant reverses, such as the overthrow of the Shah, were not the result of the initiatives of the Lobby. And as noted, the energy corporations prospered.
That at once raises another question about the M-W thesis. What were "the Lobbies" that led to pursuing very similar policies throughout the world?
When we do investigate (1), we find that US policies in the ME are quite similar to those pursued elsewhere in the world.
Take, as one example, arms sales to China, which they bring up as undercutting US interests. But they fail to mention that when the US objected, Israel was compelled to back down: under Clinton in 2000, and again in 2005, in this case with the Washington neocon regime going out of its way to humiliate Israel. Without a peep from The Lobby, in either case, though it was a serious blow to Israel. Reagan ordered Israel to call off the invasion, then entered to complete the removal of the PLO from Lebanon.
Another problem that M-W do not address is the role of the energy corporations. They are hardly marginal in US political life -- transparently in the Bush administration, but in fact always. How can they be so impotent in the face of the Lobby? As ME scholar Stephen Zunes has rightly pointed out, "there are far more powerful interests that have a stake in what happens in the Persian Gulf region than does AIPAC [or the Lobby generally], such as the oil companies, the arms industry and other special interests whose lobbying influence and campaign contributions far surpass that of the much-vaunted Zionist lobby and its allied donors to congressional races."
Also to be explained, again, is why US ME policy is so similar to its policies elsewhere -- to which, incidentally, Israel has made important contributions, e.g., in helping the executive branch to evade congressional barriers to carrying out massive terror in Central America, to evade embargoes against South Africa and Rhodesia, and much else."
Like you, I also have not read the book. I have seen the various critiques of it including the one you referenced and quoted from, above. I did find the youtube video interesting and a rather compelling arguement, whether "true" or not.... the lobby can be portrayed as "Trim Tabs" that steer US foreign policy.
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Paldi5: Like you, I also have not read the book. I have seen the various critiques of it including the one you referenced and quoted from, above. I did find the youtube video interesting and a rather compelling arguement, whether "true" or not.... the lobby can be portrayed as "Trim Tabs" that steer US foreign policy.
read a far more extensive one that provides examples from said book and explains that if there is a group effecting US policy it certainly has little effect on it as state of the art arms sales to Saudi Arabia and other regimes are hardly iin the interest of Israel as is pushing for a Palestinian state on land Israel currently occupies.
As well, the power of this lobby is hardly that of the oil companies, arms industry and NRA so where this fallacy comes from that they are in fact steering US policy (which is also observed to be hand in hand with the interests of Israel more often than not) can only be found in some conspiracy theory.
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jvaski: If I hear the word Israel just one more time .......
I'm gonna .......!!
I'm gonna .......!!
Note to all:
In the interest of keeping Jvaski's .... sanity errr ....current psychological state intact, I propose that Isra*l be permanently misspelled on this thread from now on. I propose 'Issreeel'
Agreed?
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Thank you all for your posts.
Peace
Peace
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The so-called Reflexive Defenders of Israel mentioned in the video - common men and women from all walks of life who happen to identify strongly with Jewish culture, can be "seen" as being a loosely organized "pack" of folks who are more loyal to Israel than they are to America because they are super sensitive (by definition) to anything negative about the Holocaust or the state of Israel and fight against these things and the people or organizations who in their view "cross the line" such as Helen Thomas.
I'm not saying it's true that there is a pack of reflexive defenders lurking under every bush or passing as students in college classrooms, just that the case can be attempted in support of the viewpoint.
I'm not saying it's true that there is a pack of reflexive defenders lurking under every bush or passing as students in college classrooms, just that the case can be attempted in support of the viewpoint.
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Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2008 - Political Science - 496 pages
For those interested.