Should Israel to allow Palestine be an independent state? (802)
spainlover: Is this the same United Nations that the Jews completely disregard when it suits them.??
ONe and the same as the UN that the Palestinians also disregard when it suits them. Lot of that going around.
In any case, now that I have clarified where on paper it gives the Israel the right to exist in the land I take it our discussion is done unless there is something else?
chris27292729: ""Wisdom of the UN,?????"" obviously no "wisdom" by the UN at the time, offering land to settlers,who had abandoned that area,for over 2000 years.Even the UN makes mistakes.
Whatever Chris. It is a done deal nice and legal. Go cry in someone else milk!
spainlover: Yes but do not forget the Arabs and Jews lived in relative peace and harmony ....before millions of Jews entered Palestine and totally overwhelmed and out-numbered the Palestinians within a couple of years
of the Second World War.!!
And DO NOT forget how many British were also killed by the Jews in the meantime.!!!
of the Second World War.!!
And DO NOT forget how many British were also killed by the Jews in the meantime.!!!
Both the Jews and the Arabs at that time killed and maimed British Servicemen my Uncle got blown up only slight damage and he knew why and holds no grudge....By the way it was an Arab bomb.
Try having a balanced look at the facts....And why because they both wanted their people in situ before the UN181 took place....
patmac: And the British and French passed the rights to the UN and the UNITED NATIONS made the CHOICE
FACT....
And if you read the Balfour Declaration the Land was split differently.UN 181 was the choice of the united nations and this superceded all prior treaties....FACT.
FACT....
And if you read the Balfour Declaration the Land was split differently.UN 181 was the choice of the united nations and this superceded all prior treaties....FACT.
Once again quoting the United Nations.!
Since 1967 the Jews have flagrantly dis-regarded the UN ... [causing 138 resolutions against them.!!]
Even to this day they are in breach articles 237 and more dammingly article 446 which was supposed to make Israel help the Palestians who they forced out by the 1967 war.
Again no action by the UN.!! A toothless tiger who only acts when the Americans want something.!!
spainlover: Yes but do not forget the Arabs and Jews lived in relative peace and harmony ....before millions of Jews entered Palestine and totally overwhelmed and out-numbered the Palestinians within a couple of years
of the Second World War.!!
of the Second World War.!!
Guess you never heard of the uprising and the Grand Mufti. If you had, the peace sand harmony would not be so apparent. And your numbers are a bit out to lunch. Well, a lot. Look it up sometime.
spainlover: And DO NOT forget how many British were also killed by the Jews in the meantime.!!!
Or by Muslims.
spainlover: Once again quoting the United Nations.!
Since 1967 the Jews have flagrantly dis-regarded the UN ... [causing 138 resolutions against them.!!]
Even to this day they are in breach articles 237 and more dammingly article 446 which was supposed to make Israel help the Palestians who they forced out by the 1967 war.
Again no action by the UN.!! A toothless tiger who only acts when the Americans want something.!!
Since 1967 the Jews have flagrantly dis-regarded the UN ... [causing 138 resolutions against them.!!]
Even to this day they are in breach articles 237 and more dammingly article 446 which was supposed to make Israel help the Palestians who they forced out by the 1967 war.
Again no action by the UN.!! A toothless tiger who only acts when the Americans want something.!!
And since then the Palestinians have flagrantly disregarded UN Resolutions. Why then are you taking sides with those who don't adhere to the law?
Albertaghost: ONe and the same as the UN that the Palestinians also disregard when it suits them. Lot of that going around.
In any case, now that I have clarified where on paper it gives the Israel the right to exist in the land I take it our discussion is done unless there is something else?
In any case, now that I have clarified where on paper it gives the Israel the right to exist in the land I take it our discussion is done unless there is something else?
You have NOT clarified the position at all.! You are just merely again quoting that toothless UN ...and their resolution.!!
See my other recent comment concerning the UN and Israels defiance of them.!!!
Guess you never heard of the uprising and the Grand Mufti. If you had, the peace sand harmony would not be so apparent. And your numbers are a bit out to lunch. Well, a lot. Look it up sometime.
Ok I should have said millions INCLUDING the ones waiting or TRYING to come in...and takeover.! Still the same result.!!!
And yes I am aware of the Grand Mufti and his frustration of the Jewish element in Palestine.
Ok I should have said millions INCLUDING the ones waiting or TRYING to come in...and takeover.! Still the same result.!!!
And yes I am aware of the Grand Mufti and his frustration of the Jewish element in Palestine.
spainlover: Once again I must re-iterate...what would we do if hundreds of thousands, then millions more took over..say Wales.. just because the UN said so.!! Would'nt the Welsh be peed off.??
Of cource not.
Welsh will welcome them with open arms.- spainlover: Once again I must re-iterate...what would we do if hundreds of thousands, then millions more took over..say Wales.. just because the UN said so.!! Would'nt the Welsh be peed off.??
Totally different question old son.
You also forgot to mention the Arabs who poured into Palestine from Syria, Trans Jordan, Egypt, Iran and Iraq.....The same way as the Jews did both sides did the same thing and then the Arabs declared war Lost of course and all these folk who poured in had no land as promised byt he Mufti in his call to arms.
Guess what these poor folk became todays Palestinians....Most of them had never been near the area like some of the Jews.
Like I said look at it from a neutral point and you will see Jews and Arabs did the same but the Arabs declared war....
I had three family members serving there and two others in Cyprus I got the facts from men who saw it first hand and they got shot at and bombed by both sides....But they all know who did not accept the resolution....
patmac:
FACT.... if you read the Balfour Declaration the Land was split differently.
UN 181 was the choice of the united nations and this superceded all prior treaties....FACT.
FACT.... if you read the Balfour Declaration the Land was split differently.
UN 181 was the choice of the united nations and this superceded all prior treaties....FACT.
You wouldn't know a FACT if it hit you in the face.
And just to prove that. It's about to happen.
Here is the Balfour declaration in its entirety.
See any mention at all of splitting the land?
Also notice the clause about nothing being done to abridge the rights of the native Palestinians.
The Balfour Declaration in no way whatsoever gave any land whatsoever to the Jews. It only said that England thought it would be a good idea if the Jews wanted to buy land for some settlements, not steal land from the Palestinians.
there's alot of facts around . One being that the arabs have caused to be built the strongest army/airforce that the middle east have ever seen (local) . By arab action in trying to kill off a race of people the IDF now rules the roost , after the first war there should have been a settelment , not a show of that . Just a few more wars . UN is only good if folks play by the rules . Arabs better start talking if they want a state or they can keep living in a slum run by butchers and madmen
spainlover: Once again quoting the United Nations.!
Since 1967 the Jews have flagrantly dis-regarded the UN ... [causing 138 resolutions against them.!!]
Even to this day they are in breach articles 237 and more dammingly article 446 which was supposed to make Israel help the Palestians who they forced out by the 1967 war.
Again no action by the UN.!! A toothless tiger who only acts when the Americans want something.!!
Since 1967 the Jews have flagrantly dis-regarded the UN ... [causing 138 resolutions against them.!!]
Even to this day they are in breach articles 237 and more dammingly article 446 which was supposed to make Israel help the Palestians who they forced out by the 1967 war.
Again no action by the UN.!! A toothless tiger who only acts when the Americans want something.!!
And the Arabs have never accepted the original 181.....Hence all those poor folk in Gaza.....Again look at both sides.....
patmac: And the Arabs have never accepted the original 181.....Hence all those poor folk in Gaza.....Again look at both sides.....
Would YOU have accepted such an article against YOUR homeland just because Americas lackie, the UN ,said so.??
Remember America only backs the UN when it suits them.!!
And since we're on the subject of the Balfour Declaration, I think its interesting just how that declaration came about.
During WW1, influential Zionist Jews from Germany secretly promised to use Jewish influence to cause the US to enter the war on the side of England. But their demand for doing so was that Britain agree in principal to the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
Naturally, when the facts were discovered after the war, the German people were outraged that German Jews had betrayed Germany. This was one of the major reasons that there was a strong anti-Jewish sentiment in the 1930s.
It was absolutely true that the Jews (or rather the Zionists) had been responsible for Germany's defeat in WW1 and the resultant economic depression resulting from the heavy war reparitions that Germany was forced to pay.
Here's Benjamin Freedman, a Jewish, former Zionist leader who grew disillusioned with Zionism and exposed the whole plot in the fifties.
During WW1, influential Zionist Jews from Germany secretly promised to use Jewish influence to cause the US to enter the war on the side of England. But their demand for doing so was that Britain agree in principal to the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
Naturally, when the facts were discovered after the war, the German people were outraged that German Jews had betrayed Germany. This was one of the major reasons that there was a strong anti-Jewish sentiment in the 1930s.
It was absolutely true that the Jews (or rather the Zionists) had been responsible for Germany's defeat in WW1 and the resultant economic depression resulting from the heavy war reparitions that Germany was forced to pay.
Here's Benjamin Freedman, a Jewish, former Zionist leader who grew disillusioned with Zionism and exposed the whole plot in the fifties.
spainlover: Would YOU have accepted such an article against YOUR homeland just because Americas lackie, the UN ,said so.??
Remember America only backs the UN when it suits them.!!
Remember America only backs the UN when it suits them.!!
Read back I showed that the Mufti's call to arms encourged as many Aras from Syria, Trans Jordan, Egypt , Iraq, and Iran to do the same as the Jews....They refused the reolution and that is how and why we have all these displaced folk ever since....
Try looking at BOTH SIDES....
That is the problem here none of you look openly at both sides ....They both carry fault...
But the Arabs carry most as they got 80% of the land and still declared war over the 20% they did not have....FACT...And they have squealed ever since....I don't see the Arab states mentioned aove giving shelter to their folk who got displaced dutring the war...It suits them to use them a a club to beat the jews with...Bloody sad...
And look what the Jews did with their 20% far more than the Arabs did with their 80%.....That is why I for one admire them.....They built and accepted the Arabs Fought and used their own folk badly...
here's some of your relations looking for trouble Pat , have a look at my pic , won't be there long
RayfromUSA: You wouldn't know a FACT if it hit you in the face.
And just to prove that. It's about to happen.
Here is the Balfour declaration in its entirety.
See any mention at all of splitting the land?
Also notice the clause about nothing being done to abridge the rights of the native Palestinians.
The Balfour Declaration in no way whatsoever gave any land whatsoever to the Jews. It only said that England thought it would be a good idea if the Jews wanted to buy land for some settlements, not steal land from the Palestinians.
And just to prove that. It's about to happen.
Here is the Balfour declaration in its entirety.
See any mention at all of splitting the land?
Also notice the clause about nothing being done to abridge the rights of the native Palestinians.
The Balfour Declaration in no way whatsoever gave any land whatsoever to the Jews. It only said that England thought it would be a good idea if the Jews wanted to buy land for some settlements, not steal land from the Palestinians.
Well done Ray.!!
By the way if you have read my comments about America and the UN, I am not anti-American.! In fact it is the damned British, of which I am one, that has caused ALL of this trouble going back to the Balfour days and after the First World War. Not only did Britain unite all the Arabs to help the War effort and kick out the Turks and Germans[ when it suited Britain.!] but then reneged on the agreetment made with the Arabs after the war ended.
Finally, to add insult to injury, some generals and idiotic politicians decided WHOLE NEW Arab countries and regions, together with their NEW borders....with a sweep of a hand, using a childs crayon and an old map spread out on side table.!
They even gave them new names...bless them. Hence Syria, Iraq, Iran Palestine, Jordan etc.etc.
Hence the trouble today with ALL the warring Arab factions and clashing religious groups.
No, I blame the British.!! Wherever we have been we have left a legacy of turmoil behind.
spainlover: Well done Ray.!!
By the way if you have read my comments about America and the UN, I am not anti-American.!
By the way if you have read my comments about America and the UN, I am not anti-American.!
I realize that.
I'm not anti-anybody myself.
I think people of all nationalities should be equal and free.
I only oppose those who try to steal the rights of others, such as the Zionists, the Anglo-American elitist establishment, the international globalist bankers, etc.
patmac: Read back I showed that the Mufti's call to arms encourged as many Aras from Syria, Trans Jordan, Egypt , Iraq, and Iran to do the same as the Jews....They refused the reolution and that is how and why we have all these displaced folk ever since....
Try looking at BOTH SIDES....
That is the problem here none of you look openly at both sides ....They both carry fault...
But the Arabs carry most as they got 80% of the land and still declared war over the 20% they did not have....FACT...And they have squealed ever since....I don't see the Arab states mentioned aove giving shelter to their folk who got displaced dutring the war...It suits them to use them a a club to beat the jews with...Bloody sad...And look what the Jews did with their 20% far more than the Arabs did with their 80%.....That is why I for one admire them.....They built and accepted the Arabs Fought and used their own
folk badly...
Try looking at BOTH SIDES....
That is the problem here none of you look openly at both sides ....They both carry fault...
But the Arabs carry most as they got 80% of the land and still declared war over the 20% they did not have....FACT...And they have squealed ever since....I don't see the Arab states mentioned aove giving shelter to their folk who got displaced dutring the war...It suits them to use them a a club to beat the jews with...Bloody sad...And look what the Jews did with their 20% far more than the Arabs did with their 80%.....That is why I for one admire them.....They built and accepted the Arabs Fought and used their own
folk badly...
Pat you are STILL missing the WHOLE point.!! The UN had NO RIGHT to say,and to allow, millions of Jews to flood into and takeover ANY country...in this case Palestine.!!!
epirb: there's alot of facts around . One being that the arabs have caused to be built the strongest army/airforce that the middle east have ever seen (local) . By arab action in trying to kill off a race of people the IDF now rules the roost , after the first war there should have been a settelment , not a show of that . Just a few more wars . UN is only good if folks play by the rules . Arabs better start talking if they want a state or they can keep living in a slum run by butchers and madmen
What a laugh. The IDF has never, ever, fought against a real army of any sort and won. Israeli gains have always been by surprise attacks followed by immediate ceasefires. When the Israelis tried to invade Egypt the Egyptians captured practically the whole Israeli army in a pincer movement in the Sinai, and immediately the US and western nations were screaming for a ceasefire. When the IDF went into Lebanon against Hezbollah they came limping back on the verge of collapse. And Hezbollah is just a militia, it has no airforce and is far from being an "army". Truth is, without massive US military aid every year, Israel would be forced to make peace and try to live in harmony with its neighbors instead of being an armed camp. It would be good for everybody, including the Israelis. But that's not going to happen. It will take an invasion and forced disarmament before Israel ever abandons its dream to conquer the whole Middle East.
spainlover: Well done Ray.!!
By the way if you have read my comments about America and the UN, I am not anti-American.! In fact it is the damned British, of which I am one, that has caused ALL of this trouble going back to the Balfour days and after the First World War. Not only did Britain unite all the Arabs to help the War effort and kick out the Turks and Germans[ when it suited Britain.!] but then reneged on the agreetment made with the Arabs after the war ended.
Finally, to add insult to injury, some generals and idiotic politicians decided WHOLE NEW Arab countries and regions, together with their NEW borders....with a sweep of a hand, using a childs crayon and an old map spread out on side table.!
They even gave them new names...bless them. Hence Syria, Iraq, Iran Palestine, Jordan etc.etc.
Hence the trouble today with ALL the warring Arab factions and clashing religious groups.
No, I blame the British.!! Wherever we have been we have left a legacy of turmoil behind.
By the way if you have read my comments about America and the UN, I am not anti-American.! In fact it is the damned British, of which I am one, that has caused ALL of this trouble going back to the Balfour days and after the First World War. Not only did Britain unite all the Arabs to help the War effort and kick out the Turks and Germans[ when it suited Britain.!] but then reneged on the agreetment made with the Arabs after the war ended.
Finally, to add insult to injury, some generals and idiotic politicians decided WHOLE NEW Arab countries and regions, together with their NEW borders....with a sweep of a hand, using a childs crayon and an old map spread out on side table.!
They even gave them new names...bless them. Hence Syria, Iraq, Iran Palestine, Jordan etc.etc.
Hence the trouble today with ALL the warring Arab factions and clashing religious groups.
No, I blame the British.!! Wherever we have been we have left a legacy of turmoil behind.
You forget in your let's balme someone Attitude (that I see has Changed) A bit back you blamed the UN for doing what America TOLD them to do.
Now it is the British....The French and British had the Mandates and they handed the UN the choice as DEMANDED by many Nations including the Arabs .....As if the used the old treaty The Jews got more land.
There were 5 nations with a veto as you might know....Not one of them used it.
And the resolution was carried...Then the fun began...
Try for once looking and researching with an open mind so far you Blame the British (forgetting the French mandate) ...
The Americans for pushing the UN ....
Fact Russia or China could have vetoed 181 they did not it carried and it carried with a UN MAJORITY.....ALL the "big five" voted for it seldom was the UN in more accord.....Blame someone fine then blame the ones who started the WAR....
The Arabs....FACT..
patmac: You forget in your let's balme someone Attitude (that I see has Changed) A bit back you blamed the UN for doing what America TOLD them to do.
Now it is the British....The French and British had the Mandates and they handed the UN the choice as DEMANDED by many Nations including the Arabs .....As if the used the old treaty The Jews got more land.
There were 5 nations with a veto as you might know....Not one of them used it.
And the resolution was carried...Then the fun began...
Try for once looking and researching with an open mind so far you Blame the British (forgetting the French mandate) ...
The Americans for pushing the UN ....
Fact Russia or China could have vetoed 181 they did not it carried and it carried with a UN MAJORITY.....ALL the "big five" voted for it seldom was the UN in more accord.....Blame someone fine then blame the ones who started the WAR....
The Arabs....FACT..
Now it is the British....The French and British had the Mandates and they handed the UN the choice as DEMANDED by many Nations including the Arabs .....As if the used the old treaty The Jews got more land.
There were 5 nations with a veto as you might know....Not one of them used it.
And the resolution was carried...Then the fun began...
Try for once looking and researching with an open mind so far you Blame the British (forgetting the French mandate) ...
The Americans for pushing the UN ....
Fact Russia or China could have vetoed 181 they did not it carried and it carried with a UN MAJORITY.....ALL the "big five" voted for it seldom was the UN in more accord.....Blame someone fine then blame the ones who started the WAR....
The Arabs....FACT..
Oh I give up.!
No one country,or organisation, voting or not blah blah, has the right
allow millions of new-comers to takeover ANY country.!! End of. !
spainlover: Oh I give up.!
No one country,or organisation, voting or not blah blah, has the right
allow millions of new-comers to takeover ANY country.!! End of. !
No one country,or organisation, voting or not blah blah, has the right
allow millions of new-comers to takeover ANY country.!! End of. !
So you would ignore the New comers from Egypt, Syria, Trans Jordan, Iraq and Iran ....There was millions of "newcomers"from all the Arab states as there will millions of Jews from Europe....All of these folk were newcomers but again you only focus on the Jews....
lOOK AT BOTH SIDES....
And the UN voted for a lot more than this little spot over. They parceled counties and land all over the world.
Because folk had had enough of war and gave the UN the right....To try to stop Wars.....Read the whole history of the period and look at it with an open mind and you will see many carry blame....But the Arabs got more folk into the area as they only had to cross the land unlike the Jews who had to run their folk by sea. And this was prevented by the British who kept them in camps in Cyprus and Egypt...
Shame you only look at one angle....The Arabs have used the folk displaced and will do as it suits them...Hence Gaza and the old camps in Lebanon's Bekka Valley....
I posted part of this speech somewhere above. But I found another site with the entire speech. The speaker is Benjamin Freedman, a Jew who was formerly a Zionist and was himself a Zionist delegate of the American Jewish Community to the Paris peace talks at the end of WW1.
He became disillusioned with Zionism in the late 40s and became a whistle-blower to the US of the part that Zionism played in bringing the US into WW1. He also exposed how Zionism exerts tremendous pressure on the US government.
He became disillusioned with Zionism in the late 40s and became a whistle-blower to the US of the part that Zionism played in bringing the US into WW1. He also exposed how Zionism exerts tremendous pressure on the US government.
spainlover: Oh I give up.!
No one country,or organisation, voting or not blah blah, has the right
allow millions of new-comers to takeover ANY country.!! End of. !
No one country,or organisation, voting or not blah blah, has the right
allow millions of new-comers to takeover ANY country.!! End of. !
Don't wear yourself out trying to respond to people who aren't even sincere.
Just speak the truth boldly and clearly.
The sincere will hear it and appreciate it.
Don't even worry about the insincere.
Use their posts as springboards if convenient.
But don't worry about trying to convince them.
spainlover: Guess you never heard of the uprising and the Grand Mufti. If you had, the peace sand harmony would not be so apparent. And your numbers are a bit out to lunch. Well, a lot. Look it up sometime.
Ok I should have said millions INCLUDING the ones waiting or TRYING to come in...and takeover.! Still the same result.!!!
Ok I should have said millions INCLUDING the ones waiting or TRYING to come in...and takeover.! Still the same result.!!!
No you should have said a quarter of a million with almost a million already there.
spainlover: And yes I am aware of the Grand Mufti and his frustration of the Jewish element in Palestine.
How about the grand Mufti and his calls to kill all the Jews?
spainlover: Once again I must re-iterate...what would we do if hundreds of thousands, then millions more took over..say Wales.. just because the UN said so.!! Would'nt the Welsh be peed off.??
You mean people that were originally from Wales? Besides, Wales is an established country. Palestine was not.
RayfromUSA: And since we're on the subject of the Balfour Declaration, I think its interesting just how that declaration came about.
During WW1, influential Zionist Jews from Germany secretly promised to use Jewish influence to cause the US to enter the war on the side of England. But their demand for doing so was that Britain agree in principal to the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
Naturally, when the facts were discovered after the war, the German people were outraged that German Jews had betrayed Germany. This was one of the major reasons that there was a strong anti-Jewish sentiment in the 1930s.
It was absolutely true that the Jews (or rather the Zionists) had been responsible for Germany's defeat in WW1 and the resultant economic depression resulting from the heavy war reparitions that Germany was forced to pay.
Here's Benjamin Freedman, a Jewish, former Zionist leader who grew disillusioned with Zionism and exposed the whole plot in the fifties.
During WW1, influential Zionist Jews from Germany secretly promised to use Jewish influence to cause the US to enter the war on the side of England. But their demand for doing so was that Britain agree in principal to the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
Naturally, when the facts were discovered after the war, the German people were outraged that German Jews had betrayed Germany. This was one of the major reasons that there was a strong anti-Jewish sentiment in the 1930s.
It was absolutely true that the Jews (or rather the Zionists) had been responsible for Germany's defeat in WW1 and the resultant economic depression resulting from the heavy war reparitions that Germany was forced to pay.
Here's Benjamin Freedman, a Jewish, former Zionist leader who grew disillusioned with Zionism and exposed the whole plot in the fifties.
A secret plan only available via you tube from ray. Why do I smell crazy all of a sudden?
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And the British and French passed the rights to the UN and the UNITED NATIONS made the CHOICE
FACT....
And if you read the Balfour Declaration the Land was split differently.
UN 181 was the choice of the united nations and this superceded all prior treaties....FACT.