krimsa Forum Posts (1,345)

RE: A sincere question to those who don't believe the Bible is God's Word

Are you talking to me? I would be referring to a prophecy alleged to have taken place in the bible that was actually fulfilled. I gave an example of one that was in the bible that was NOT fulfilled. I figured it would be easier for you to give us one that has been fulfilled and then we can debate it legitimacy.

RE: A sincere question to those who don't believe the Bible is God's Word

So was someone going to list a "fulfilled prophecy?"

RE: Isn't God with Everyone?

Oh boy! The Christians sure opened up a can of worms with all of these "appeal to this and that" logical fallacies.

RE: Isn't God with Everyone?

All that poster did was list ACTUAL passages from the bible. Why may I ask do you find the bible so offensive?

RE: Does God Hate?

Well except this one has actually been in regards to "does god hate or not"? I feel the argument that he does in fact hate and hate a good portion of the time has been laid out like a brick wall.

RE: Does God Hate?

I would agree with you on this point because we know for a fact that these early Christians practiced both animal and human sacrifice and on a fairly consistent basis. I don’t necessarily attack them for that because so did the Pagans that preceded them. To what extent we do not know because most of these records were documented by Christians some time later.



However the Law was given to us by Yahweh.



Same point here. The Mosaic Law was handed down by Yahweh (the Christian god) to Moses.



So once again, this god is demanding more blood sacrifice. It’s a circular argument. God give us the law which states that we must kill sinners. Of course one of those sinners described in the Law just happened to be a young woman who is discovered to not be a virgin on her wedding night. Yet that is the word of your "loving god" right there.



So wouldn’t that imply that Jesus, this man was AGAINST the word of his father which was represented by the Law?



Didn’t god create us? Why would he purposely create beings that he knew would be "sinful" in his eyes? Why did he give us the law to begin with?



Are you sure about that? There are several passages in the bible in which there are conflicting statements made about this.



We know that Jesus died "apart from god" He was forsaken by his own father at that point as a mortal man. This is the depiction that was also given in the passion at least. He was a mortal man.

RE: Does God Hate?

Excellent question

RE: Does God Hate?

I think the case has been made for a very hateful, angry, jealous god based on several OT passages that have been posted. The only explanation I have heard is "well those people deserved to be hated because...." It’s those kinds of comments that truly frighten me out of alleged "loving Christians."

RE: A sincere question to those who don't believe the Bible is God's Word

Well it was stated that Sarah having a child in her advanced age was in some respect a "fulfilled prophecy." I would disagree with that. Perhaps another could be listed unless you want to pursue Sarah and Abraham for some reason.

RE: The cost of Religious abandonment...

Well Stress and I were kind of broaching that topic. Its not that the government has changed all that much since this nation's founding. I know you might disagree but I visualize it more of a gradual "erosion" that has taken place and primarily the religious right is responsible for that in this country.

So to answer your question can you have a government that is free of religious influence eh, yes and no. Obama is a Christian (or so he says) but he's clearly a liberal Christian. Do you think it would have mattered? Was Obama claiming the conservative, Christian vote? I don’t think so. That was all senator McCain’s. Obama is also pro-choice and has relaxed the prohibition on embryonic stem cell research that Bush had essentially halted.

I think it will gradually happen on its own. We have 8 more years of Obama (well hopefully unless he blows it totally) and that might be enough time to put a dent in the Christian right's fan base.

This is a quote that I find interesting that actually shows that this country was clearly not influenced by Christianity early on.

In a sermon of October 1831, Episcopalian minister Bird Wilson said,

"Among all of our Presidents, from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."

RE: The cost of Religious abandonment...

This website I was looking at was not very current in their stat listings so I have no idea how accurate it was. They just run standardized questionnaires about people’s religious affiliations so if they check a box as Christian, then they are counted as such. But yes, you are correct in that numbers are down. I hang around a mixture of people here, some pagan, some Christian so it’s anyone's guess. Religious affiliation is not something that comes up in conversation right away. Yes, but being an outsider would help to broach those kinds of questions. I wont get emotionally involved with a man I know is going to be condemning me to hell so in that circumstance, I will ask up front.

RE: The cost of Religious abandonment...

Right! I’m glad someone believes me on this. I got into a bit of an argument with a Christian (Mike HD) about the fact that this nation was founded by Deists and not Christians. Granted there were Christians involved in the Continental Congress (it would have been a statistical impossibility for there not to be) but Benjamin Franklin as you noted, was one of the higher profile Deists. He was also a scientist.

Yes I realize that the Right Wing Christian lobby in the US is very powerful but as you noted, their numbers are on the decline (or so I have heard). I read on a website that Christianity recedes by roughly a percentage point per year in the US. The fact that we have Obama in office now is amazingly encouraging.

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson

RE: Great soul......

He's different from Mohammad in the sense that we can’t know conclusively if he actually lived or not. He never wrote anything down himself and everything written about him in the NT was documented some 60 years after his alleged crucifixion. So when you are reading this, you have to keep in mind that it is hearsay. He’s an interesting character (real or fictionalized) however and highly controversial and sometimes he gave conflicting messages that are subject to the interpretation of the individual. It’s best to read the bible for yourself and reach your own conclusions.

RE: The cost of Religious abandonment...

Yes that was why I did make a point of saying this nation was founded on secular concepts and free thinking. It’s steadily been eroded and now Christianity has become the dominant religious force in this nation. However, the US is not a Christian nation. There is no such thing as a Christian nation. There are Christian individuals, not nations.

RE: The cost of Religious abandonment...

The United States was founded on secular ideas and concepts, one of which was Thomas Jefferson's famous "separation of church and state." I understand that is not exactly what you mean and the US has now overwhelmingly become Christianized. Are atheists communists? Of course not. Some atheists are communists, and communists have been taught to be atheists, but becoming an atheist doesn't affect your politics. The point is that religion provides an alternative source of authority and moral teachings. Communists or any such totalitarian regime would like to avoid that at all costs. Aside from that, theology is useless to them.

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false,
and by the rulers as useful."

RE: A sincere question to those who don't believe the Bible is God's Word

I think people used to have LONG life spans (in the bible anyway) not in reality. In biblical times, probably you were lucky to see the ripe old age of 30. Allegedly, god reduced our life span (well that’s another contradiction) to 120 years because "he was tired of arguing with us" This happened in Genesis.

“The scripture states” being key here. We don’t even know if Sarah and Abraham ever existed so it’s hardly conclusive proof of a "fulfilled prophecy." You are using the bible in order to substantiate a story in the bible. In truth their first born was Ishmael.

Remember that the Arabs (Palestinian people) are thought to be direct descendants of Ishmael and the Jews are the offspring of Isaac. This has led to quite a heated animosity in that region of the world. More than likely, a Jewish scribe essentially placed the character of Isaac in the forefront of the story to make it appear as though all the blessings fell on him (even though Ishmael was the elder son). You can bet the Quaran has an entirely different understanding of events.

One would have to wonder why Abraham needed god's help with Isaac but none other when he was already 100? The story is not very convincing on several counts. I guess that’s why the bible is refereed to as the "great book of loopholes."

RE: Prove to me....

Do you miss me slamming Allah on the Quran threads?

RE: A sincere question to those who don't believe the Bible is God's Word

I don’t think god really wants to terrorize and control people at all. I think other selfish and fool hearty men do and this was the premise they conjured in order to accomplish this.

RE: Prove to me....

You agree that worse people than Charles Manson have claimed to be Jesus incarnate? I thought you didn’t believe he was a Christian by the way?

RE: Prove to me....

"All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." John 1:3

Yes, are you stating that your own interpretation is somehow superior even though it’s identical? How could Jesus be with God in the beginning as this verse says, if Jesus was created by God? And how could Jesus be "a god" and yet be with God during the creation?

I was waiting for you to actually tackle the contradictions and instead you are posting other passages that are allegedly the words of Jesus. What of the god/man contradiction? Did that get lost in the malay?



What does that have to do with me?



And this is proving what? You can’t just list a bunch of sections.



19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

"He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life." John 12:25

You must hate your life in order to keep it. (If you love your life, you'll go to hell after you die.) You can keep that "world outlook."



Talk about reaching. You have to look at what it actually states, not what you want it to say or mean. How is this addressing the contradictions by the way?



"An overseer must be the husband of one wife."

Apparently, it's OK for laymen to have several??

Mike are you going to address the contradictions any time soon?

RE: Prove to me....

true...

RE: Prove to me....

He's a psychotic Christian. He even claimed to be Jesus.

RE: Prove to me....

Well I’m just assuming hat is what you will claim. Just trying to head you off at the pass so to speak. You dont think its the first time I have heard that one do ya?

RE: Prove to me....

The watchtower is the Jehovah's Witness interpretation of scripture. Are you implying that their beliefs are not valid yet yours are? Jehovah's Witnesses is a restorationist, millenarian Christian religious movement.



And it says this where? How can that be as I detailed in my last post?



Well of course not as that would be a contradiction. That is what we are discussing in fact.



You don’t need to. Jesus basically promises a huge reward to those that abandon their family, lives, homes and wives. I never said I agreed with everything Jesus said. We know he was a human (unless you want to insist on this contradiction.) In fact I disagree with a few notions he had



I did not even bring any of that up, you did. Stick with the contradictions.

RE: A sincere question to those who don't believe the Bible is God's Word

Yes thats right.

RE: A sincere question to those who don't believe the Bible is God's Word

Was that even a prophecy per se? It is strange that the 100 year old Abraham required God's help in fathering Isaac, yet later he marries again and has six more children without any help from God.

RE: A sincere question to those who don't believe the Bible is God's Word

RE: A sincere question to those who don't believe the Bible is God's Word

Can anyone name a specific biblical prophecy that was indeed fulfilled? That might be a better way in which to tackle this argument? Explain what you feel qualifies as a "fulfilled prophecy."

RE: A sincere question to those who don't believe the Bible is God's Word

I dont have a speaker hooked to this computer....

RE: A sincere question to those who don't believe the Bible is God's Word

Finding Lucy

Don Johanson describes finding the knee joint in Hadar, Ethiopia, that first indicated a bipedal hominid had lived 3 million years ago. His subsequent expedition led to the discovery of Lucy, a 40 percent complete skeleton of a new species of hominid, now known as Australopithecus afarensis. The final piece of the puzzle was a skull from the same site, which clearly demonstrated that Lucy's kind were small-brained, although they walked upright.

Credits: © 2001 WGBH Educational Foundation and Clear Blue Sky Productions, Inc. All rights reserved.