Professor Birch, please point out where you wrote Hamas is not helping the Palestinian cause. I don't recall reading those lines from any of your postings here. But if you truly have written those words, then I will thank you in advance for reposting them. See...I'm a good sport about it even.
You always blame the Jews for something and that is a recurrent theme in all your political forums at some time or another so I'm not surprised here again that you are blaming Netanyahu. Don't know where you got your 50% poll results from either.
I must admit that you are a man of compassion for both sides of the Middleast issues. Being human that people are, there is always someone who takes great joy out of pushing buttons to make even a peaceful person get pretty darn mad. I was the peaceful quiet easy going person until several of the CSers here deliberately enjoyed writing very inciteful hateful forums and then others would jump on the bandwagon with them and it became regular Jew bashing sessions. It has become a site of hatemongers. Reporting them to the Mods has been totally ineffective as they come back under another profile name. I seem to be one of the few that will speak up for my ethnic heritage and make it clear that I will take a stand. They use the term anti-Zionist but when you read the forums clearer, it is indistinguishable from anti-Jew. I will not identify the writer's names but reading the Middleast forums will give you an idea of who I'm speaking of. I get tired of reading CSers justifications for approving of Hamas's actions for murdering Jews, death to Israel language and language such as how Jews steal the land, how Jews control all the money, how Jews have no right to a naval blockade to stop the arms and rocket shipments that are used to shoot at them and the list goes on Chris. So sir, I have taken a stand. I'm not a radical nor a Zionist but a person who was very quiet and peaceful but has a strong conviction. I don't write to change their minds as that is an impossibility but I will point out their dubious credibility, especially from the hatemongering websites they aspire to and cut and paste from. I wish I knew the answer to a permanent lasting Middleast peace but that is something that I do not know the answer to. To me, it would take a miracle from God, Allah or whomever we pray to in a faith. For others with no faith, it would be just a matter of finding the right moment in time when all sides come to an agreement and go for a common goal. Maybe that kind of karma is a miracle of sorts for those that believe in miracles for the middleast.
OK Abram, I promise that I won't get you started on These Criminals as you call them. There is obviously something that weighs very heavy in your heart and I do not wish to start you going on anything that would bring you great emotional pain again in your life. You have my respect for everything that you fought and won. If there is anyone who deserves justification for their cause, it is you sir.
I watched my next door neighbor's trailer burn to the ground at 4am in the morning when there was 24 inches of snow on the ground and the firetrucks couldn't even get hooked up quick enough. 10 pumper trucks couldn't get through quick enough to save the woman and her 2 week old grandson who were found clinging to each other both burned to a crisp. The woman's son and his 19 yr old girlfriend came home just as the fire dept was pulling his mother and their infant from the rubble. They kids were hysterical screaming out of their minds.
I was haunted by the experience for over a month as everyday I opened my curtains and walked out my door, I had no choice but to see the ruins.
Am I compassionate? Yes!! I spoke to my girlfriend whose mother had just passed away and convinced her to literally give her mom's trailer to the son and his girlfriend as the young boy was still living at home with his mom. I also had linens,an extra bed, furniture and dishes to give them to get a new start in life.
Sadly, the couple broke up after this loss and never did take the free trailer and items that was offered them as a starter home for the both of them to start over with. So sad indeed.
I'm not bashing our president as he has inherited problems and new problems that have been created as a result of prior administrations lack of oversight. I feel that he is basically trying to put out fire after fire so to speak. And only time will tell just how successful he will be. We cannot expect him to cure all the past administrations issues in so short of time. In putting this out for thought, if any of us were to be walking in his shoes so to speak, the amount of distance we would have to walk to solve all the issues at hand would equate to probably walking around the world at least 1 time or more poosibly. Many footsteps to solve this country's problems for sure. I have more faith in him than in the last Bush administration who mired our country for 8 yrs. I do believe that Obama is a man of conscience and vision and knows that he is a small part of the larger part of future generations of people to come. Can you imagine ever being in charge of so many people's lives at any time in your own life? You can only hope that the decisions you make are the right decisions. There will always be someone yelling that you are doing the job wrong though. That's how I view our president. Coincidentally, I did not vote for him but I have a renewed sense of respect for the man for the job he is trying to do. He sure has a long "To Do List" of things needing to get done. Only time will tell just how successful he will be in bringing about a major change in US citizens and world opinions of the US. That Abram will be what we will all have to wait and see.
Sorry Chris that you feel that way. No, I am far from being a fanatic. And for your information....yes....I have lived over in Israel but my immediate family is here. Like you say, there is enough room in this world for all of us Jews in Israel. But there is also enough land for the displaced Palestinians to go back to the countries that displaced them into Palestine in the first place. Goes both ways sir. But what you fail to realize is that it is the radical fanatic total anihilation of Israel that is the agenda. It is the Hamas stance and over and over again throughout history, different Muslim and non Muslim groups have tried very hard to succeed in this reality. So you are accusing me of being a Jewish fanatic because I've read the postings here that tout Jewish hatred and take a stance and speak up against it. So basically, my postings are in a direct response to continuously being attacked on this website from those who support the groups that aspire to the annihilation and death of the Jews. And to those who deliberately continue to incite hatred of Jews on this website and that is where you are obviously missing the point. So sorry that you feel that I have no rights to speak up for my people being bashed on continuously lest I be accused of being a fanatic. I have a voice and I too will speak it. It is OK if you do not care to read my comments, you are certainly free to post to other forums that are more agreeable to your views on a subject. But thank you for being civil and respectable to me as to how you view your personal thoughts on the issue. At least you are not cursing or nasty name calling. You have my respect sir.
Looks like our Miss u2kitty has decided to conveniently bow out of the forum after I answered her questions and then posted her some questions. I'll give her credit that maybe she is working her job and just doesn't have time to respond right now. Hope she is not like others who come in to a forum, make a screaming controversial stance with name calling and then dissappear altogether. She doesn't seem like that kind of person though.
The video is quite shocking to say the least. Do you think that the Dept of Homeland Security is keeping an eye and an ear on this group and is deliberately not shutting down their rantings and gatherings? Somehow perhaps they are listening in on the pipeline chatter to watch and see how they move about in the US and what they might be planning next. In our great country of free speech and the fact that someone is innocent until proven guilty, I believe that this radical group would scream that their civil rights were being violated if any of them are American citizens and would turn around and sue the govt. With all the high profile lawyers just vying for attention and fame, you can better believe money will talk when it comes to this group hiring a high power civil rights attorney. What it all comes down to is that the civil rights for a foreign group minority in this country will take precedence over the safety of the majority of the American citizens of the US. Sad, but so very true Abram. Thank you for posting the video. It is quite an eye opener. I believe some Jewish groups were being banned on campuses in the US and Canada as they were being assaulted by Islamic sudent groups recently. Perhaps you may recall the situation that prompted their banning?
As you know, I am in the opposite view as you but I am respectfully in full agreement with the Gaza blockade remaining in place. If Hamas really cared about it's citizens, they would release Shalit in exchange for more humanitarian aide for their people. But then again, they would lose world sympathy and could not complain of any starvation. They even boycotted Israeli food and products recently that were given them so how hungry can they really be? I do believe the blockade has slowed down weapons smuggling by sea routes.
I also find it reprehensible that the flotilla do gooders in their zest to Free Gaza and forcibly try to break a naval blockade that is in place due to being at war with Hamas have turned a blind eye to the illegal abduction of Shalit and the refusal of allowing the International Red Cross to even see him. The PR people of Hamas have done one heck of an overwhelming terrific job duping the world of their woes. Hamas will hold Shalit forever because the international community puts no pressure on them whatsoever to release him. And Israel should obey the international community's demands to disband the blockade while Hamas gets away with the illegal abduction and incarceration of Shalit and illegally not allowing the International Red Cross to visit him? All prisoners in Israel get Red Cross visits.
Haaretz News 14 Jun 2010 Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman said Thursday that Israel should not lift its blockade on the Gaza Strip unless Hamas agreed to goodwill gestures such as allowing representatives of the Red Cross to visit captive Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit.
Lieberman told Amir Oren and Gabriela Shalev, Israel's ambassadors to the United States and the United Nations, that there was no reason to change the status quo with that regard until Hamas acceded to that minimum request.
Lieberman's remarks on the link between Shalit's release and the lifting of the Gaza blockade echoed pleas made by the captive soldiers' supporters last week, amid international pressure on Israel to end its siege in the wake of the deadly raid on the Gaza-bound aid flotilla.
"The Israeli government, the prime minister, and the security minister, while trying to find a solution to the latest diplomatic crisis, have forgotten that the blockade of Gaza serves as an impetus to pressure Hamas as Gilad's incarceration has already lasted four years," said Shimshon Liebman, who heads the campaign for Shalit's release.
Amid worldwide pressure to end Israel's four-year siege, it was reported that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is considering easing the naval blockade of Gaza.
In so doing, he would be acceding to pressure from Washington, which opposes continuing the blockade in its present format and demands that Israel make it easier to send civilian goods to Gaza.
"It can't be possible that Israel will allow massive amounts of merchandise to enter the Gaza Strip at the same time that Gilad is rotting in a Hamas cellar," Liebman said.
Excerpt from a 2nd news article in Haaretz 14 Jun 2010:
In October 2009 Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip, released a video showing Shalit alive and apparently in good health - but has refused to allow doctors or aid workers to visit him. On Monday the International Committee of the Red Cross called on Hamas to grant it access to the soldier.
The siege of Gaza and the one-sided war was part of Israeli self defense strategy. Very limited attacks have been launched against Israel but the Israeli response has always been deadly. The useless rockets of Hamas have been used as a pretext by Israel to launch its attacks. They are the reason given for imposing the siege.
The legal dictionary of Gerald N. Hill and Kathleen T. Hill (1981-2005 by) defines self-defense as,” self-defense n. the use of reasonable force to protect oneself or members of the family from bodily harm from the attack of an aggressor, if the defender has reason to believe he/she/they is/are in danger. Self-defense is a common defense by a person accused of assault, battery, or homicide. The force used in self-defense may be sufficient for protection from apparent harm (not just an empty verbal threat) or to halt any danger from attack, but cannot be an excuse to continue the attack or use excessive force.”
Since when are Gerald and Kathleen Hill the recognized official legal warfare authorities that can identify exactly what is appropriate self defense against an attacker? THEY ARE ONLY DICTIONARY AUTHORS. WARFARE IS OBVIOUSLY NOT THEIR SPECIALTY!!
I do not know anywhere is history or in writing where warfare homicide has to be done on an equal level. Rock throwers vs rock throwers, rocket for rocket attack, suicide bomber for suicide bomber, assassin for assassin. So when one country stops the other country from completing one of the missions of above by using some other means, then this is illegal according to you? Now if you believe for even a mmoment that it is illegal, then try having someone attack you and see what you would do to get them to stop. If someone came at you with a knife and you zap them with a stun gun or shot them and they drop dead, then you have used too much force to overpower them. And you would be the criminal in that scenario!!! How would you like to be accused of using too much force against your attacker and that you are going to get the charge of homicide leveled against you? That is what is comparable to what you are telling me the Israelis are guilty of. They get attacked and they fire back and you are blaming them as criminals for defending their own people. No....I don't think they shoud be charged whatsoever when they are defending their own people. That is what the military is there for.
In a fair answer to your question, here is my response to the condemnation on Israel. I doubt that Israel would be condemned by the world and even western moderate countries if these countries had enemies like Israel constantly attacking them at every opportunity with a written and aggressive agenda to annihilate their people. Some countries also play the sympathy to the aggressor because if they sympathized with Israel, then the aggressors that attack Israel will be sure to send in their "missionaries" so to speak into the sympathizing country to do to them just what they've done to Israel. Literally cause some loss of life and political confusion for awhile.
In response to your second concern regarding an attack on a UN warehouse....is this the same UN warehouse where Hamas was found to have gone in and stole large amts of humanitarian aide that was to be distributed to their people by the UN agency? The UN personnell obviously did not or could not get out quick enough before the Israelis got closer. Can't help but wonder who blocked the UN personnell from getting out of the area? Surely not the Israelis as they weren't there yet.
Sorry Birchie, I forgot to give you credit for the first part of the last posting there where you stated "The rod and staff of Peace." You deserve the credit for that statement very appropriately. Sorry about that, it was not intentional.
You see, these peacemakers were armed with one thing you and your pack will never have,....The "rod and staff" of Peace.
And I suppose those knives and steel bars that the armed Turkish peaceniks used to kill the IDF and throw them into the sea were only twigs, eh? C'mon,the rod and staffs of peace!! Only in your imagination and dreams can those knives and steel bars become twigs for peace in the hands of the Turkish terrorists. Or maybe by an act of God can they change.But sure as heck not by an act of man. Their guilt is written all over them and the real peaceniks have told the story of what occurred.
I can't help but wonder when in the future that France will have it's Eifel Tower blown apart or when Italy's Leaning Tower of Pisa gets toppled. If these countries become too complacent, their weakness will be found and these terror groups will exploit it. It's just a matter of time before they come to the shores and infiltrate and set off a spectacular show for the world to see. The US and Spain have already seen their share.
I agree with you 100% Abram on this issue when it comes to being broadcast in advance with the flotilla. However, it was not yelled very loud to the peaceniks in advance or else I doubt they would have even wanted to be on the Marmara to have to be treated in the manner they were subjected to by being lowered below deck so their terrorist compardes get to host a knife fight above.
I don't know in history for sure whether Japan had announced that they were planning a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor though. America didn't take Japan seriously enough until we got drawn in by the surprise attack on us. And we didn't take Al Queda seriously enough until we got a surprise attack on 9-11. When will Europe wake up and those bleeding heart peaceniks open their eyes and see who and when comes for them as their countries get taken over by those whom they have opened themselves up to. And no one will be left to stand up for them or to rescue them. And Israel will not cower down to them.
Abram, according to this article, it appears that since 2009, the IHH has been preparing itself to deliberately cause an international confrontation on the high seas with Israel. No wonder Israel had to do a practice run and boarded the ship in the manner in which they did. Thanks for posting what the real truth is.
Sir, you have the active imagination to think that they thought they wouldn't be martyred. In your own words, "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight" and that is what they did. Propaganda it was for sure. The "poor sods" who took over the ship and staged the fight to gain martydom while leaving the world to know their intentions on their laptops.
I agree with you completely. I also would welcome an international probe. It would be very interesting to see what the international governments would find when they read what is on the laptops and have a chance to interview the real peaceniks. The world might be in for quite a surprise when they find that Turkey will be implicated in inciting the confrontation.
Birchie, I must admit that I can tell that you are quite disconnected from reality facts and conspiracy fiction. You have no way to explain the justification for the IHH guys bringing along the equipment to cut the ships railings, take all the knives from the cafeterias nor even for stealing all the ships axes. And they don't need reconnisance either as they already knew 2 hrs in advance when they were going to be intercepted as Israel already made it clear they were boarding all ships that wouldn't stop. Ships do have radios ya know. As for bringing along guns, give me a break Birchie!! The Israelis would find them very quickly. Their secondary choice of weapons was a bit more subtle and not as easily noticeable by the majority of peaceniks. Hence they were lowered below deck to keep them under control by those who mutinied the ship.... before the Israelis even boarded. Surely you can put 2 and 2 together why the peaceniks were pushed below so as not to be witness to what was hoped to be a slaughter of IDF soldiers who fell into the trap and would be pushed into the sea.
As for you sir, watch your back cuz your partner is out there looking for you:
Bad boy, bad boy...whatcha gonna do when they come for you, bad boy, bad boy!!(And you know the rest of the song)
Interviewing the real peaceniks and searching the laptops tells the rest of the story. The Erdogan connection came from the laptops of the IHH passengers. The true intentions of the IHH connections were right there sir. It is they who cannot fool the world in this case. An international probe would even prove the connection to be true.
By Anshel Pfeffer Tags: Israel news Gaza flotilla Middle East peace Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan An investigation by a private body of Israel's intelligence officials has found that the Gaza flotilla activists aboard the "Mavi Marmara" who clashed with Israel Navy forces last week were part of an organized group that was prepared for a violent conflict.
The report, which was published by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (Malam), also found that the group was supported by the Turkish government and that Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan was aware of the plans for violence.
Malam is a private organization that serves as an unofficial branch of Israel's intelligence community and in the past has been a medium through which Israel's intelligence findings were made known to the public.
According to the investigation, while most of the 500 Mavi Marmara passengers were humanitarian activists and volunteers who underwent a security check before boarding the ship in the Antalya port, a group of 40 IHH activists boarded the ship in an Istanbul port beforehand, and separated themselves from the rest of the passengers throughout the journey.
These activists boarded the ship without a security ship and were equipped with communication devices, flack jackets embroidered with Turkish flags, and gas masks. The activists turned the upper deck into their headquarters and refused entry to the other passengers. Among the activists was a clear internal hierarchy wherein specific activists acted as commanders.
The leader of the Islamic organization, Bülent Yildirim, was on the Mavi Marmara and briefed the IHH members about two hours before the Israeli Navy arrived at the ship. Their main objective was to hold back the soldiers with any means available, and to push them back into the sea.
The ship did not allow weapons on board, however, the IHH members stocked up won metal rods, knives cut the ships metal rail which they used to attack the soldiers. According to an officer who was aboard the ship, a confrontation started when the ship's crewmates heard the IHH members sawing the railing into metal rods, but they were unable to confiscate them from them.
The IHH members gathered all the knives from all six cafeterias on board the ship, as well as the axes from the fire extinguishers on the deck, all of which served as weapons in the attack against the Navy commandos who landed on the deck.
Before the takeover, all the passengers who were not related to the IHH protestors were lowered into the belly of the ship and were ordered to remain there. Only journalists and security personnel were allowed access to the ship's deck.
The footage filmed on deck matched the testimonies of the passengers that claimed they did not witness any violence, as they were denied access to the deck, where the violent attack occurred.
The testimonies are also similar to the version given by the Navy commandos who said that they fought with a group of approximately 50 people who used every weapon available to attack them.
Eight of the nine dead were identified as IHH members.
Files found on laptops owned by the IHH members pointed at strong ties between the movement and Turkey's prime minister. Some of the activists even said that Erdogan was personally involved in the flotilla's preparations.
They also said that they knew in advance that their chances of making it into Gaza were slim, but their initial goal was to "to expose Israel's true face to the world."
An IHH journalist said during his investigation with Israeli security forces that "the Turks set a trap for you and you fell straight into it." He also said that the recent flotilla was the first in many.
I don't see any of the Muslim countries assimilating in the international community. They are Muslim ruled countries by a Sheik tht are not democracies and that is the way it will be NOW & FOREVER..in 5 yrs and in 50 yrs. Some rule by Sharia law and all use the Koran for guidance on judicial issues.
So puleeez...don't give us the sob story of how Israel has no intention of assimilating. No arab country assimilates so don't expect Israel to. Israel better be vigilant considering what type of neighbors she has to deal with that pounce on her every chance they get.
It's interesting that Turkey peaceniks seem to be worrying about the Palestinians but not about what was done to their own population of Kurds. Rather ironic. Seems the Israelis want to find out exactly why the Turks have slighted their own people and feel that it is so important to force their way through a naval blockade while Israel is at war with Gaza. Somehow I think that the Israeli student flotilla will meet a military blockade trying to sail into Turkey to address their concerns regarding the treatment of the Kurds. It will be interesting to see how Turkey greets them before they even arrive and what excuse Turkey will use to condone the treatment of their Kurdish population. Now we shall see!!
Here's the newest articel out of Haaretz Jun 8 2010
Israeli students plan own flotilla to meet next Gaza convoy at sea Student Union chairman says 400 yacht owners interested in initiative to sail to northern Turkey or Cyprus.
By Yossi Melman, Asaf Shtull-Trauring and Jack Khoury Tags: Israel news Gaza flotilla Israel's National Student Union is planning a flotilla with hundreds of yachts from Israel to meet at sea any new humanitarian aid flotillas heading toward the Gaza Strip.
According to Boaz Toporovsky, the union's chairman, 400 yacht owners have expressed interest in the initiative, which is expected to start up in two weeks.
"Our wish is to talk with the members of the flotilla, to see if they want to talk to us, and to ask them why the problems of Israel, in Gaza and Palestine, are disturbing them," Toporovsky told Haaretz last night.
"We would ask why they are not talking about the Kurdish minority or the Armenians that were murdered or many other problems? We want to expose the truth, this hypocrisy and the absurdity."
Even though there are reports from Turkey, Iran and European activists that ideas exist for another flotilla to Gaza, it appears there are no concrete plans to break the blockade in the coming two weeks.
The Free Gaza movement has begun another round of fundraising for an aid flotilla, and there is talk that a three-ship mission will be organized.
Meanwhile, the student union and a nongovernmental organization of former navy personnel are trying to raise funds for leasing a ship that will travel to Turkey to protest in favor of the Kurds.
Toporovsky says that "we thought of an idea of sailing to Turkey or to the northern part of Cyprus, or to southern Turkey, where there is a concentration of Kurds."
LILLYLADY Forum Posts (1,293)
Their guilt is written all over them and the real peaceniks have told the story of what occurred.
RE: if you knew BajanBlue
I remember reading many of Bajan's postings. She didn't have a mean bone in her body. RIP Bajan, you were loved and missed by many.