There is a saying from one of Shakespere's plays, "Hell hath no fury like a woman's scorn." Can't help wonder if this hit was from a wealthy scorned woman or her husband that may have found out about the affair.
These international financially powerful men surely have people that keep an eye on their spouses. Perhaps maybe this dead man crossed the wrong person's path and has had a revenge killing exacted upon him. He obviously had enemies as he went to great extremes to try to be as secretive in location and even a room without a balcony or window. But someone in his circle knew where he was going to be. I'd say this was a setup from an inside job of his constituents. He was doublecrossed by his own people.
How can you say you are not pointing a finger at Israel. You are doing the Blame Game as we call it here. "Not me...It wasn't me. I didn't say anything at all."
Quote you a few postings back on this forum, "I would not be surprised if they will use the names of their own citizens or residents, just to fool world that somebody is trying to trap Mossad/Israel."
Please remove your rose colored glasses sir and get a new prescription to see the world a bit more clearer than what you appear to be seeing now. Now think about it a bit more here. Mossad is not going to do identity theft of it's own citizens to bring world attention to their own countrymen. It would be more appropriate to cause aggravation elsewhere and turn the attention elsewhere. However, it is most likely that someone with a grudge against Israel from another country would deliberately use Israeli citizens names to bring world attention to blaming the Israelis. This was done to deliberately yank Mossad's chain a bit I believe. Doubt Mossad is going to let themselves get humiliated. Thank you!!
You're right Conrad. Mossad would not be using the names of their citizens. They would be using the names of probably known terrorists on their lists. I personally think the hit was an inside job from someone in his circle that he double crossed. It is said, "The bird don't fly where the tale(tail)don't follow." And followed he was I believe from someone whom he jilted in his business dealings over the years who wanted their money's worth or refunded. To look at the pictures of the suppossed ring, several of them are very Arabic looking. None even resembled a Jew. Maybe a hit on him from an international arms dealer or drug cartel. Mossad is just being accussed as a scapegoat to throw off whom the real criminal mind is behind the hit. Doubt the CIA had anything to do with it either.
There is a saying that goes, "When you point your finger at someone, there is 3 fingers pointing right back at yourself." Try it sometime and you will see what I am talking about. So if the world as you say is pointing at Israel's Mossad...think again at the sources who are doing the finger pointing. You too are obviously in that fingerpointing group by the way you are damning Israel. Since you feel that that the Israeli govt is only out to kill and hide their deeds, then it seems rather obvious that you must believe that all the Muslim governments are holier than thou and would never ever do such stuff. C'mon give us a break. If you believe that, then you need to remove your rose colored sunglasses please. Again, you are free to continue pointing your finger at Israel if you choose. As long as you have 5 fingers on your hand, it is your perogative.
I don't recall any Arab country lodging a protest over the murder of all the Israeli athletes during the Munich Olympics years ago. And which Palestinian group did the dirty covert operation to murder all the Israeli athletes in the Athletes Village in Germany during the Munich Olympics? Such goodwill to their fellow Jewish brothers there by the Muslim brotherhood, eh? And you're beating on Israeli Mossad? PULEEEZE...C'mon, get real here.
I think you are right on that one. Glad that you are in good spirits tonight. I'm trying to keep Glen's thread light at this point as I would hate to see it ruined by a certain sad sack that is trying to get our attention and pick a fight.
Anyway, I'm heading off to sleep for the night. Glad to see you as always.
So, I see that you are attacking both Conrad and myself. I was right when I said that you couldn't get us riled up on your Jerusalem thread so now you are coming over here on this forum to go after us. Nah, I'm still not mad.
Gee, neither Conrad nor myself were even having any debate with you that I recall on either of these 3threads. Perhaps you are having a one sided debate in your own mind tonight with Conrad and I and are in the mindset that you are defeating us. Well, if you think so...then so be it.
Conrad, please bring back that spoon in honor of SilverBirch.
Gosh! You couldn't get Conrad and I riled up on your East Jerusalem thread so now you come over here and try to stir up some stuff here to ruin Gleneagle's thread. Guess you didn't take the hint with Conrad's big spoon he put on your East Jerusalem forum in your honor.
I believe somewhere I had read that you are AKA John Birch? Official leader of the John Birch Society?
Ah Conrad, I love the spoon picture. It is most appropriate.
Somehow I recall that this topic has been hashed out before last year. Same old same old stuff. Typical rabblerouser forum. Nah, I'm not wasting my time giving any input. He just wants a fight and is not looking for polite exchange of views. I'll let his fellow cronies answer him. It will just be a repeat all over again. Nothing new will be learned or exchanged.
I didn't know you had just joined this site a week ago. WELCOME TO CS
Enjoy the banter but don't take things what people say overly personal. Sometimes people will hit a raw personal nerve and get on your last nerve too. Just be polite and stand your ground. I have stood my ground many times on this site especially on the Gaza threads and have been bashed a bit and hand it right back to the bashers.
Stick with us here and join in. We have some fun times here with teasing each other lightheartedly too. We are not all "sticks in the mud" so to speak.
I am very sad that your postings of your views were taken a bit too far by one of the members here as you have mentioned. Perhaps this member who intimidated you has had something very personal touch his life stemming from something having to do with the middleast or war in general. Hopefully he will write you privately and explain himself why he got so upset. Something you said must have hit a raw nerve with him.
In a goodwill gesture, I hope that he can bring himself to open up to you in a moment of introspect and respect and try to realize that his actions and words are painful to you considering you most likely do not know what you said that even hurt him.
Sometimes, I have to stop for a moment when I am upset by what someone writes. I realize by putting 2 and 2 together by the way some sarcastic posters write or cut n pastes excessively that the other person who states what they call facts, actually has a very limited or heresay view on a situation and poise themselves to make others believe they know everything as fact.
Now I don't know if any of this is the case with the person who took your writings very personally but I do hope they will open up to you politely. I do not believe that you would put yourself out to ever deliberately hurt someone's feelings Glen. Your views are strong but not ever meant to hurt someone. Everyone's life has a story that is behind what they write and think.
I will do some research and get back with you. Much appreciate your response. I do definitely have some comments. However, I am not looking for you to publicly or even privately admit if you are wrong as I do not feel that your personal views are wrong. You have a right to them. I also would not state that my views are wrong as I believe our dialog should only be about learning new facts that are unique to either side of the issue. It is not a debate that I seek in my dialog with you. What is most important is that our views are not a battleground so there is no need to concede,admit fault nor change each others views. I hope that this is acceptable to you.
What angers me here Glen many a time is the fingerpointing at Jews in general. If one Jew does wrong, it is all Jews that are branded as bad. For one thing, jealousy towards Jews be it for their education or financial success is very strong as I have even read on this forum. If it wasn't for historical reasons in history why Jews value education and strive for success in life to become strong and independent, then who would the world blame next for financial success and great influence in the U.S.? Just curious here on this one.
Being 2nd generation American born from decendants of orthodox Jewish decent and having been born in 1953, I grew up with the elderly immigrants and their stories and the beginnings of the State of Israel and understand where and why it's beginnings had to occur.
And you who have grown with the religious and ethnic tension in Ireland in your upbringing have much in common with the plight of the Jews who were kicked out of the middleast many centuries ago and have fought hard to get back to the land of their ancestors that was taken from them many generations ago. It is that deep down in the soul feeling that is at the root of the Jewish survival and the existence of the State of Israel much as the deep down in the soul feeling has to do with the Irish/British Protestant/Catholic survival. It is most likely the same with the peaceful Palestinians that just want a chance to live in peace with the Jews. But for Hamas, I do not believe it is a deep in the soul feeling to live in peace. Their charter and training of their children to murder Jews tells of a different agenda than peace. It's not about land for them but of power, dominance, blind obedience and servitude.
Am very glad you wrote and pleased to hear from you. I thought that earlier you mentioned that you were from the middleast. If so, I appreciate your polite perspective input into this discussion. Perhaps you might clarify something in the Koran where Islam acknowledges the Jews in Palestine. And if I'm not mistaken, is it not true that Islam came about approximately 600 yrs after Judiasm? We are descended from brothers from the same father, yes?
As I spoke in an earlier posting,I spoke of the Diaspora. That is the Jewish migration out from the middleast many millenia ago due to forcible expulsion due to conquering nations who took over the land. The Jews were forced out into areas that later became Russia and Europe and other areas around the world. And later on in history, from those countries they were even expelled and murdered after what they worked for in those countries.. was again taken from them by political leaders of the era. It's happened over and over throughout the centuries.
So I think the issue of original ownership of the Israeli land goes far back into history of the Jews. So I do understand the meaning of the right of return for Jews worldwide to be in Israel. However there is the current dilema whereby the Jews have the right to return to what was taken from them 1000s of yrs ago and yet the current day Palestinians feel they have a right to return to what they have lived in for perhaps a lot shorter time span. Both sides have legitimate claims I believe.
Having lived in Israel in 1972, I was very moved to be in the Dome of the Rock and actually go underneath the Rock and look up through the opening to see where Abraham would have sacrificed his son and Mohammed would have ascended to heaven.It was the most beautiful and peaceful place and no one seemed to care that I was quietly admiring the beauty of the place. I carried my shoes. Hence the same peacefulness at the Wailing Wall as I placed a note to God in the wall for peace.
I am so saddened that today I could not walk peacefully to the Dome of the Rock or even in Hebron to see the Tomb of the Patriachs or even into Bethlehem as I had also visited. I could not walk through the Arab Marketplace and friendly socialize with the Arab proprietors and buy a beautiful brightly colored long dress again. They were so gracious to sit down with me and share cups of tea even. Most likely I would get kidnapped today if I even tried to see these places of my youth. I had no fear of anyone harming me in my youth. Perhaps I was just lucky as I was very innocent and happy go-lucky.
It is sadly a divided world we live in. Glad we are generally free to travel the beautiful sites in the U.S. without such fears overall. Maybe this will eventually happen in the middleast in our lifetime or the next. It is what we should all hope for.
Thank you Gleneagle for your comments. Israelis are not in favor of ethnic cleansing. However, when you look at Hamas's charter, you will see that ethnic cleansing of Jews is high on their list of priorities. And Iran is right in there with them. Here is another one to consider from WW2, the Einsatzgruppe Egypt. Consider if this group had succeeded in wiping out the Jews in Palestine, they undoubtably would have gone after the arabs and there would be no Palestinian issue as such today. Now that group was bent on anihilation for sure.
I see the democracy of the State of Israel as having the right to defend itself against those that attack it...with or without the assistance from other countries. Even the U.S. doesn't send it's soldiers in to free the Israelis from the attacks of the neighboring enemies. But yet the U.S. and Nato will go into Iraq, Iran(in the past),Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan(and supply weapons) and elsewhere in the world and sacrifice their lives for muslim on muslim violence but will not step one soldier onto Israeli soil to fight for a Jewish life. Israel has a very small population and is easily outnumbered by it's arab neighbors on all sides. Surely all the arab countries could get together and wipe out Israel and could hold the U.S. and NATO hostage to do without oil if they really pushed for Israel's destruction? This is something I often thought about and wondered why it hasn't occurred. What is your thoughts on this?
Consider this, how safe you would be if you tried to walk free in Gaza vs Israel? I believe there is a freelance journalist that is imprisoned right now in Gaza. Palestinian children are taught they are to kill the Jews. Palestinian Media Watch shows this even and also shows small children learning to kill. I think you would walk and rest a bit easier in Israel to tell you the truth. Israel is constantly on the lookout for saboteurs and terrorists that infiltrate. The security and safety of all it's citizens and tourists is high on their list of priorities. I can tell you that rock throwing at vehicles, terrorists being caught with bombs, weapons and knives is very common in Israel.
Several of the CSers in the past have pointed out the history that the Palestinians were originally Transjordanians who through wars migrated into the land in dispute now of Israel and it's territories. Prior to 1967, the Jews only had a very small area of land and they were attacked from all sides from the arab countries. No one came to their rescue. The land they accessed was land from the arab countries that had attacked them like vultures. Israelis figure that if their enemies cross over the border and try to take the Israeli land then have the right to cross over their enemies borders and take the arab lands. They gave back land to Egypt for the promise of peace and so far that promise has stood. But Israel can't give back land to a people that want their total annihilation rather than live side by side in peace. Jews won't go to slaughter again. Ireland would not give up it's land if all it's citizens were going to be slaughtered no matter who claims Ireland before the Irish.
From what I garner of the situation, Israel would gladly give up the West Bank and Gaza if the Palestinians would leave the Jews alone. But as soon as past treaties were made...who lobes the first rocket everytime? It isn't the Jews. In the last Lebanon war and even with Cast Lead, Hezbollah and Hamas started the rocket lobbing all over again. The world stands by and does nothing except talk so it is up to Israel to protect it's citizens. After so many rocket attacks, Israel gets mad and gets down and dirty so to speak. If you keep getting taunted enough, would you not finally hit a breaking point too?
Again, I appreciate the input that you put forward.
Trish, you have no argument on your hands from me whatsoever. As we had words in the past on the Gaza thread last year, I have gotten to know you as the most sensitive, sincere person with a very level headed way of thinking. You are a joy and pleasure to know and I mean that from the bottom of my heart.
Anyone that dares to insult you should first take a moment to truly get to know you for the gem of a person whom you are. You are so rich in your knowledge and feelings for your fellow human being. Your compassion is way above some of the people on this site in general. Humans being humans spout off easily in moments of blind rage when they feel that their way is the only way and neither anything else will do. Maybe most of us at some time in our lives have been guilty of this and eventually have to reign ourselves in a bit. And I have been one of those guilty people.
You bring to a discussion information that you have researched well but are always open to learning something more than what you already know. I've noticed that you never shut the door and ever believe your way is the only way.
As far as my b/f, not only is he very Catholic but also of strong Italian/Irish roots. He is truly my soulmate in life. May seem odd to some that this conservative bordering orthodox Jewish girl gets on very well with a staunch Italian/Irish Catholic guy. We know when we speak & look at each other what the other one is feeling. Neither of us domineer each other over any issues. No big conflicts or drama.
I love ya too Trish. U are absolutely right. I should not have even posted at all. Truthfully, I am all for the Gingerbreadman Calavary of sorts that Alexey and Conrad spoke of. Perhaps sweets for both sides are the answer to peace. Makes everyone happy in general. A good laugh over a cookies, milk and a cup of warm coffee to wash it all down might be of some help for hot tempers in general.
In reference to religion, my b/f is very devoutly Catholic and I am very strongly Jewish. And we get along extremely well. It's 2 1/2 yrs together from meeting on CS here. Religion for either of us has never been an issue. Nor has the political history of either of our faiths ever been an issue. I also grew up in an Italian Sicilian Catholic neighborhood in New York.
For the record, there is no pork chop crossing my threshold for me to ever cook in my home(not even for him)but on the same token, I respect his Lent season and I cook only fish dinners on Friday. He can eat his BBQ ribs in a restaurant in my presence. That is OK...he just knows better than to ask me to cook one in my home. Same goes for ham. If banning a pork chop or a ham roast from crossing my threshold means I'm prejudiced, then I guess I'll take the blame.
I go to church with him as he goes to my synagogue with me.
Here's a few things to consider. Murder of Jews is taught to children as part of their general schooling education in Gaza. Consider the fact that Hamas revels at murdering their fellow Palestinians under Abbass. And considering that, Israel should be pressured into giving up land to make a Palestinian state? Nah, I don't think so!!
It's not about having a peaceful Palestinian state but about murder of every Jew. Radical Islam even in Europe and the U.S. seeks to destroy innocent lives. It seems like there are enough bombings in Europe and U.S. to let the world know that it's not in the name of peace for a Palestinian state that is really at stake. It's more like a takeover of the entire world by Islam.
Perhaps consider this when even the Koran gives the right for the Jews to have the land. Perhaps future Muslim generations did not want to acknowledge their own scripture. Are Muslims now double crossing their own prophets promises from eons ago?
Also on archaeological history, there seems to continue to be discoveries of Judaic origins in Israel of ancient trading posts and caravan communities but not much of early Muslim beginnings.
The verses were taken from Sura 5:20-21, Sura 7:136-137, and Sura 17:103-104. The first selection reads:
“Recall that Moses said to his people, "O my people, remember G-d’s blessings upon you: He appointed prophets from among you, made you kings, and granted you what He never granted any other people. O my people, enter the holy land that G-d has decreed for you, and do not rebel…” The second selection: “We let the oppressed people inherit the land, east and west, and we blessed it. The blessed commands of your Lord were thus fulfilled for the Children of Israel, to reward them for their steadfastness, and we annihilated the works of Pharaoh and his people and everything they harvested.” The third selection: “And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, "Go live into this land. When the final prophecy comes to pass, we will summon you all in one group."
Sorry if I got a bit on a tangent here. Sorry if I'm offending anyone as I try not too. But sometimes, there are CSers who only go on what they hear from rabblerousers.
No, it happened to me. I was able to see the entire list of all the categories of forums and the titles but there was no list of the last person to post and how many minutes ago someone just poted. I thought that was rather odd that CS was suddenly changing their way of posting around a bit. But it's back to normal this morning.
Been talking to people but most people don't quite understand or even have compassion to grasp the magnitude of this loss. Perhaps one of the CS members may have had a similar experience and can relate to it. Everyday that I walk out of my home and get into my vehicle, is directly in front of me. Eventually, the rubble will be removed. What is hard is to see the makeshift shrine of balloons and teddy bears and people stopping by to view this. And to see the family walking over the ruins looking for anything to help bring closure and restart their lives as they are all crying. I recall going to the 9-11 site of the Twin Towers about a year after they collapsed and seeing a big hole in the ground. You could hear a pin drop when people were lined up all around the barricades and makeshift shrines. 2 bodies were found the next day. It is such a feeling of helplessness when I know that there was nothing I could have done to save those 2 lives across the street.
The son and his girlfriend were not married but were very close. This was her first child. They and both families are still in shock.
I am watching the rubble to make sure there are no souvenier hunters picking through it. Just people bringing teddy bears and balloons for now.
The local coroner must be feeling awfully bad to have to autopsy burned up victims and especially an infant. That has got to be the worst moment of his life. I can only imagine his feelings.
Thank you all for your kind thoughts. I am constantly reminded of how fragile our lives really are. To look out my window across the street is a constant bleak reminder. Autopsies are being done today to determine the cause of death. I can only hope that they were overcome by smoke before they burned up. People have put teddy bears and balloons up. The family and friends were sifting through the rubble yesterday in search of momentos to move forwards in life with. I walked over to offer them my home to warm up in and use my bathroom. While there, I found 2 Bibles and some pictures at the perimeter of the rubble and handed them over. Also the remnants of a little child's book that showed a line stating, "how good it is when people work together." I gave that to the family also. The neighbor's son who is the father of the infant said on the news, "I changed my son(diaper), burped him and then kissed my mom and him goodbye and went out for the evening. I came back as they were pulling my mom and baby out of the rubble." He had kissed them goodbye before he went out for the evening.
Thanks for your thoughts. I have talked to a few friends. Sometimes, we need communal support too to help us work through our personal feelings so I have posted here. I will get through this awful funky feeling eventually but will always feel that emptiness whenever I look at that space across the road. Knowing that it could have been my place and my life snuffed out too on a cold bleak night in the midst of heavy snowfall.
At 4am on Feb 6(yesterday), I got a phone call from my landlady asking if there was a firetruck in front of my home. As I walked to the front of my mobile home, I witnessed the trailer 30' away fully engulfed in flames.
The firemen struggled through 24" of unplowed street snow and labored in brutal cold temperatures to try to hook up their hoses. The home was gone in less than 15 mins before they could even get their equipment operating. 6 other fire depts arrived shortly after but the look of hopelessness was on their faces too as they took turns manning the hoses. A 4 wheel drive big city snow plow was called in to try to open up the other side of this small street to get other rescue vehicles in. Then 3 other plows arrived.
I watched in despair as the flames shot up and out the windows and the walls came tumbling down. The car 5-7' away was unscathed and the tree next to the home was only blackened.
In the end.....my 63 yr old neighbor and her 2 week old grandson were pulled from the rubble. She had him cradled in her arms and he was underneath her body as she was obviously protecting him from the heat and smoke. Both burned horibly. It took 3 hours of continuous effort to get the fire fully out before they could start the search effort. It kept reigniting itself.
The neighbor's son was visiting friends and the police came and brought him just as his baby was being pulled from the rubble. He literally went screaming crazy. His girlfriend whom just had the baby and her mother also went screaming and crying.
Today, I walked over there and stood on the perimeter and pulled out some pictures, a child's book and 2 Bibles and gave it to family members. A lifetime of love, laughter, and sad moments in that family are gone up in smoke. My neighbor's husband passed on from Agent Orange cancer several years back. Her greatest joy was her children and grandchildren.
So now I am in a funk with the memory of the home engulfed and the loss of a terrific neighbor and a newborn life. This thought haunts me. The cause of the fire is unknown. Furnace just had a blower motor and the hot water tank was OK as far as we know. Why the back of the house where the bedroom is had so much more damage we don't know. The lady didn't smoke and used no candles. No gas explosions or electric, propane/gas heaters involved. Arson, murder and suicide ruled out. The fire is truly a mystery...something I will never forget.
No smoke alarms were heard. Only alert was the next door neighbor's house dog who woke up his owners. Those people were the first to see the fire and then me next.
Moving here 20 yrs ago, I was the youngster in the neighborhood at 36 1/2 yrs old with a newborn. Now I am the last of the seniors in this corner.
We just got 24" of the fluffy stuff in 24 hrs. Although our little burg claims it got 14", nobody obviously came down to our section of town and measured all our yards, streets and driveways. No wind gusts either with this. Just heavy snow downpour.
Sadly, at 4am Saturday morning, I was awakened to see the firetrucks outside my home putting out a blazing inferno at the mobile home across the street 30 feet away from me. My neighbor lady and her 2 week old grandson burned up alive. Found her on top of the baby with her hands cradled around him.
Firemen couldn't hook up the hoses fast enough and get it through the deep snow and billowing black smoke. They felt helpless as it took 3 hrs to contain the fire. A 4WD city snowplow was called in to try to clear another entrance on the road. Then 3 other private snowplows came. 7 fire depts were lined up and only 2 could work at a time due to bad conditions. The home was fuly engulfed in 15 mins and the firemen were not even able to get hooked up quick enough to do much good.
LILLYLADY Forum Posts (1,293)
RE: Colonisation of Palestine (acceptable or unacceptable)
There is a saying from one of Shakespere's plays, "Hell hath no fury like a woman's scorn." Can't help wonder if this hit was from a wealthy scorned woman or her husband that may have found out about the affair.These international financially powerful men surely have people that keep an eye on their spouses. Perhaps maybe this dead man crossed the wrong person's path and has had a revenge killing exacted upon him. He obviously had enemies as he went to great extremes to try to be as secretive in location and even a room without a balcony or window. But someone in his circle knew where he was going to be. I'd say this was a setup from an inside job of his constituents. He was doublecrossed by his own people.