LILLYLADY Forum Posts (1,293)

RE: Prove to me....

There you go again Krimsa... tearing apart line after line looking for a fight by making up assumptions on something that has not been said by me at all. It is antagonistic in wording and not conducive to establishing a constructive dialogue. And there you go with 6 questions again. It is usually 1 or 2 lines and then you blow off some "off the wall" question. You must have some type of paragraph comprehension problem going on.

YOU SAID THIS: "So in other words, you are making the claim right now that everyone in the world who has had a NDE but NOT come away with it in a belief in your god of Abraham specifically, has not really had a NDE? I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly. So if a Muslim had a NDE and saw Allah, or a Wiccan had a NDE and witnessed the Goddess and God together, those would be false? Only the NDE that substantiate the premise behind the Christian interpretation of godhead is to be considered legitimate?"

MY ANSWER: There is no place where I stated specifically and I do mean specifically, stated that everyone in the world who has had a NDE but not come away with it in a belief of my god of Abraham has not really had a NDE. FRANKLY, I HAVE NEVER MADE SUCH A STATEMENT AS THAT, AND THAT IS AN ABSURD STATEMENT TO EVEN MAKE. AND FURTHERMORE, I NEVER SAID ONCE ANYTHING WITH THE WORDING OF THE "GOD OF ABRAHAM" NOR ANYTHING ABOUT "CHRISTIAN INTERPRETATION." IT IS YOU WHO CONTINUOUSLY BRING THAT WORDING UP.

I can now see why you get into so many fights with CSers. You twist and pull words out of context and try to make them into something else and then lay blame on someone else. And then you start popping out question after question and jump off a topic. And BTW, can you not read...read the entire paragraph(not just one liners) on what I wrote on Wiccans and another paragraph that I even clarified more about the Wiccans belief in their god deities, before you accuse me of saying they are atheists. It is you who are showing the full arrogance by pulling words out of context without finishing the entire paragraph.

Everytime I try to start a decent conversation with you and try to establish something concrete, you do the "Million Question March" on me. You do it to other CSers to when you continuously do not really want to have a dialogue because you are afraid someone may disprove you. No one has been able to establish anything before because of your inability or refusal to stick to even one thought on a topic, and stop your rambling from thought to thought as evidenced by the "question routine." Then when you get called on your rambling tactics, you start accusing others of arrogance. Well, the arrogance shoe fits you very well there.

To be honest with you, I'm not interested in the "Million Question March" and allowing you to continually ramble on with question after question when you don't read or comprehend what I or anyone posts in paragraphs. I have better things to do with my time. I am terminating my dialogue with you at this point.

I will concede though that you are the "Queen of. You won hands down on that point.

RE: Prove to me....

So where do the laws of nature come from? Certainly they are not man made, eh?

RE: Prove to me....

I have no comments on Conrad's article on Baptism as my faith does not do this so I am not qualified to discuss the pros or cons or anything on it. That would be for someone else to discuss on the validity of this practice or any comments pertaining to it.

RE: Prove to me....

You ask how I would know? The answer is that if you had experienced a supernatural experiences like an NDE and told us of what had happened, you would not be searching the bibles for proof of the non existence of God. You would be searching to find out what caused these supernatural occurances to you personally. Perhaps you may be thinking, "There may be something to this God experience afterall."

BTW, I am aware that the Wiccans believe in deities or Gods. I did acknowledge it in my previous posting that they have a god(s), more the gods of nature though.

I won't comment on Conrad's article.

Your article here could only lead me to believe that the skeptic believes everytime a doctor brings back a clinically dead person to life or a clinically dead person comes back on their own, it means that the doc was always wrong that the person was clinically dead in the first place? No, I don't buy into that thinking that the doc always has to be wrong when announcing clinical death. When there is a cessation of vital signs and brain stem function...that is death and I agree. But when a person comes back from that death state and can tell you what occurred in that interim, that is where divine intervention comes in to play in spite of clinical death. A skeptic cannot explain that part, neither can the states Uniform Determination of Death Act.(UDDA)

RE: Prove to me....

Krimsa,

I've had several experiences of my own that I'll share with everyone that leave me no doubt that there is a God who has performed supernatural events in my life that defy anything I or anyone can explain. From finding pennies consistently when there is something medical I need to urgently follow up on,(friends have seen this) to my cats coming up to me and rubbing on my ovaries as I silently prayed not to have ovarian cancer(which I didn't but it was very probable due to a genetic mutation I carry)to having the excruciating pain of 6 herniated discs simultaneously suddenly subside as I poured out my heart to God to ask for healing and I promised to do whatever he/she requested me in life to do from thereon. If you've ever had 1 herniated disc, you can well imagine that 6x over. Only morphine and toradol shots together releived the pain in the ER. This sudden cessation of pain did not occur with drugs though. I healed from the hernias very quickly after that but do still have back, joint and spinal alignment problems with pain. Just not living with excruciating unbearable pain anymore. Am back to work.

From a personal standpoint, I cannot doubt my experiences nor can anyone substantiate why these events happened. I have to believe that God heard me and knew that I was sincere in my requesst. I am very different today than what I was way on back before these events happened. One does not have to find the proof of God's existence in a bible Krimsa, only in the experience's in one's own life. Perhaps that is the message of what people are trying to tell of in NDE's. Some see and experience God in different ways.

There will be one time or more when a supernatural experience will happen to you personally Krimsa where you cannot come up with an explanation. It is then that you may acknowledge God's existence and power and whom is really in control.

RE: Prove to me....

If however, we were to accept that God exists and if we embark on the search for God using all the facets of our being and with focus and intent, (which we must employ in order to find anything) we have a good chance of success. If we employ our right brain intuition, intuitive wisdom and its associated natural connection to the metaphysical realms, together with the discerning powers of our left-brain and if we were to go within and contact our soul, as this is the only portal to God, we will assuredly find God.

Within this portal, there are as many individual paths to God as there are individual fingerprints and no one can ever truly convince another of the reality of God. The only possible way anyone may be convinced without any doubt, is to go there and find out for themselves.

The journey within and then to God is the most exciting, wonderful and yes, sometimes terrifying journey we will ever take. It is a journey far more fascinating and exciting than any we may take in the physical realms, but once taken and once contact has been made with the Divine, the reality is undeniable.

It is not possible to debate the issue of whether God exists or not with the Richard Dawkins of this world, as we would merely have two talking heads engaging in a nonsensical exercise. We would have two left-brains discussing, what is for the left-brain an incomprehensible abstract. In addition, the path to the Divine is liberally strewn with paradoxes. The left-brain is uncomfortable with such devices. It is for this reason that many Eastern Religions have created devices such as Koans. Their express function is to remove the left-brain temporarily from the equation in order that some movement along the pathway to the Divine may be accomplished.

Paradoxes are enormous fun to work with and until one can come to understand paradoxes and accept their essential nature, the journey to the Divine will be difficult, if not impossible.

Taking our individual journey to the centre of The Divine Creative Field/God is the only possible way any of us can Know the reality of God. Once having been there it is not possible to deny the reality, and the left-brain then becomes acquiescent.

pg 2

RE: Prove to me....

Krimsa,

This article hit right onto the point of why atheists/non believers have such a difficult time with the God concept.


Where is God?
Adonia Wylie
Copyright Feb 23 07


If one searches for God using only the deductive reasoning and logic of the left-brain one is doomed to failure.

Richard Dawkins having explored the further reaches of his left-brain has declared in his book The God Delusion, “There is no God”.

If one searches for God using only the deductive reasoning and logic of the left-brain one is doomed to failure no matter the quality of the left-brain thus employed. Logic and reason are not the portals to God. Indeed, they may be more of a hindrance than a help. It is true that a study of quantum physics, ancient scriptures such as the Bhagavad Gita and the Bible may help our understanding along the pathway to the Divine and for these studies, a reasonable left-brain is necessary. However to access and interact with the Divine, the whole being must necessarily be employed.

Today, many of us in our left-brain focussed educated world live almost entirely in our left-brains, we live almost wholly in the physical explicate world and believe only in that which our physical senses can confirm. To find God, we must first choose to move out of this limiting paradigm and into the world of our whole being, a world in which we will discover what extraordinary electrical beings of enormous as yet untapped potential we really are.

If we were to look for anything at all in the ordinary way in the physical world, in order to have half a chance of finding it, we would first need to believe the thing we were looking for existed. If we attempted to find something we were quite sure did not exist, we would almost certainly be guaranteed that our search would fail. Yet so many of us do just that, or to be more correct, so many of us set off to prove God does not exist and of course under such circumstances come up with a reasonable, (to the left-brain) thesis as to how and why there is no God. Richard Dawkins is merely another case in point.

pg 1

RE: Prove to me....

With substantiated proof of people being raised from the dead as I have posted in articles like Emanuel Tuwagirairmana and you would still deny the existence of God (or any god as you state), then the ball is in your court Krim to prove and explain to us why you don't believe in God's existence.

Perhaps the answer may lie in the fact that you don't believe that a person had that personal experience. Even to see it yourself, I doubt you would believe it. I do believe that only a personal experience of your own Krimsa could really honestly and truly change your non-belief system.

You have searched very hard to substantiate your non belief because you've never had an experience to validate the belief of God. Whereas others have had that experience in different ways, whether through their children or someone whom they've had the honor to meet in life as some CS forum posters pointed out.

The people who have had God experiences in their lives do not have to continue searching to prove the existence as there is an inner sense of spiritual calm in their lives after they experience God's power. But those who have never experienced God or are so closed minded to a supernatural experience, are left in a state of constant searching. I believe that is where you are at as to why you tear apart the Old and New Testament or the Koran and keep questioning paragraphs.

I do believe that your personal experience will eventually happen and we(meaning CS family)will not be surprised. At least I won't. God of Abraham, God of Jesus or God of man in general, God does exist and eventually will present to you directly. None of us whom believe in God will doubt your experience.

Now I'm not being nasty here Krim but I do see a pattern in your obsessive searching various scriptures and what people tell about their own experiences.

RE: Prove to me....

No, I have never wondered why there are so many atheists/agnostics in existence. Everyone has their own belief system of whether they do or don't believe in God's existence. I've met a Wiccan once, she was my coworker. Beyond that, I have never personally met an atheist. In fact, I was surprised when there were so many atheists on this website that got offended by people who believe in God and yet they themselves could not positively prove the non existence of God. It's like positively prove the existence of God and positively prove the non existence of God like Ambrose said.

I have never condemned anyone's non belief in God nor the Wiccan's belief in the "mother nature" god nor will I insist to anyone that my religion is the only correct way to reach God.(some people insist that their way is the only way and that if you don't believe as they do, you're damned)

I really do think that perhaps you may be the best qualified to answer the question that you asked me.

You see Krimsa, in my attempt to prove to you of God's existence and provide people's stories, it will still most likely never change your mind. You will always be a doubter no matter what. The only thing that can really change your mind or an atheist's mind is a personal experience of your own or perhaps of someone very close to you who was also a non believer. It is only then that you may come to understand things that are not of this world but are in the realm of God or as some people might call a divine intervention that goes beyond medical science.(not alien outer space stuff though)

I'm sorry I cannot find the article I had recently read as I didn't know we were going to discuss the issue. I wish I had saved it. From now on, I will try to save articles. It's hard to try to find an article on a newspaper website that may have been printed weeks ago, unless you know the exact title of the article. I'll have to concede when it comes to this article as I don't remember the exact recent day I read it or the title so I am unable to produce it here. I'll print something off from now on to refer back to.

RE: Prove to me....

Krimsa,

The problem I have with you is that instead of staying on one particular topic, you start jumping around and asking all kinds of questions which then lead to other topics and we can never get one thing established to agree on. I have noticed that you do this. Perhaps it is not intentional, but it throws you and the other person(s) off the main idea of what is being discussed. Maybe those questions are only statements in your own mind, but when you write them out in question form, you are challenging the other person to answer them as they are written. Then you get defensive and challenging when someone doesn't answer them. This is why I am unable to get specific criteria established with you.

I am trying to establish with you a specific criteria and now you are asking athe following:

How is that changing? You told me it was not specific enough so I said well does this satisfy you? How would that be me changing? (quote Krimsa)

EXAMPLES OF YOUR CHANGING YOUR CRITERIA:

Exp. 1-"IF today, someone was capable of raising either an animal or human from the dead, I would accept that as proof. But there are several variables involved. Proof of what? Which god? Would it be a human who is accomplishing this feat? "


Exp. 2 -"If an animal or human was raised from the dead after several days, I would declare that significant evidence. I would require that it break any current standing records."

Exp 3 - "It has not been accomplished based on the criteria I just listed above. Even if it had, who would take the credit for it? The Christians? The Muslims? The Wiccans? The Satanists? Every religious sect on the planet more than likely."

Exp 4 - "We are asking that something supernatural occur here. In order for it to qualify as such, it MUST defy medical science as you stated yourself."

You jump around too much with your thoughts Krim. You talk of generally raising humans or animals from the dead, supernaturual events, then go into low temps as the varying criteria everytime I give you proof. If you want to stick with trying to prove God's existence, then please line up a concise criteria instead of jumping to add another changing criteria, thus adding questions. Otherwise, you will never be able to have anyone answer, not myself or anyone else even.

As a nurse, I know that clincial death means not only cessation of vital signs, but also of brain stem function. In order for that baby in the article I posted to be considered clincally dead for 8 mins and then revived, there had to be no brain stem function. It was room temperature dead for 8 mins. That infant cannot tell us what transpired in those 8 mins while it was completely lifeless. Yet when an adult tells of the NDE, then you feel it isn't valid.

Your mother has revived babies that still had brain stem function, not that were clinically dead, maybe only those that appeared dead as you have stated. But real clinical death is something different as stated in that article. It was beyond the realm of normal science or else they wouldn't have posted that in a specific article if it was something that is done everyday. Eh?

RE: Prove to me....

Isn't that a miracle that all of us would like?

RE: Prove to me....

Aw Dusty, that's cruel!

RE: Prove to me....

Your criteria as you listed it at one point is the following. Is this the criteria of which you want to use? How about this.

Breaking any recorded medical records for length of time that someone was clinically dead. That would fall into the realm of "defying medical science" as you stated.(Quote Krimsa)

It's very broad and you only want a proof of something that breaks the current medical record as proof of the existence of God? So death is death without any other mitigating external factors but the criteria is in the realm of defying medical science. So if all functions including brain stem function have ceased and a person or animal is brought back to life either by man or by themselves, then this is considered OK by your explanation of the above. Yes? Or is there anything else you wish to add to your criteria?

RE: Prove to me....

Thank you Conrad for fixing the site for George Rodonaias. I'm not as computer saavy for fixing sites. Appreciate your help.

RE: Prove to me....

Another man's experience with the existence of God. Here, this man's body was already disintegrating without being put in a refrigerated morgue. Perhaps this may fit the decomposing criteria of which you were referring to. I'm trying to piece together all of the changing criteria you had mentioned and show you that there are events that occur amongst humans that are above the realm of science and defy scientific logic. These are the experiences that prove God's existence. Something that is not tangible to touch but yet spiritually occurs that no science can explain.

Emanuel Tuwagirairmana lived as a Christian in Rwanda. During the Rwanda genocide of 1994, he was seriously injured and, together with ten other people, hid in a school. The wounds on his body grew worse and one morning his friends realized he had died. They could not bury him as it was very dangerous to move out of the school. They hid in Kabwai School in Gitarama town, about 45km from the capital Kigali. They wrapped his body in a bed cover as his body was smelling and fluids were coming out of it. The situation lasted for seven days!

Emanuel had a near-death experience and was taken to heaven. He says he did not know how he got out of his body; but, suddenly he just saw a man at a gate. The man told him that he was an angel and that they were standing at the gate to heaven.

There, he met Christ who presented himself to Emanuel in two forms: first, with a body of scars, and second, with a perfect body.

Jesus brought Emanuel back to Rwanda in the very house where his dead body was. They stood up in the room and no one could see them. Jesus showed Emanuel his dead body. It looked terrible. Jesus told him that one day after his visit in heaven, he will go back in that body.

His friends could not believe their eyes when they saw Emanuel's rotten body shaking and the straps getting loose.
One of Emanuel's arms had a part that had been eaten by maggots which was causing the arm to almost fall off. He was then taken to a hospital in Kigali.

The rest of the story goes that a doctor in Australia was able to save his arm.

I cut down the story Krimsa as it was a very spiritual experience for this man. Since none of us walks in the shoes of the people who experience these bodily revivals, we only can rely on their NDE. In this man's case...7 days with the maggots eating him up and with dead body fluids oozing out of him is very compelling.


.

RE: Prove to me....

George Rodonaia's Account of His Episode With an Infant During His NDE

More information concerning George's NDE account is described in Dr. Melvin Morse and Paul Perry's book entitled Transformed by the Light. Dr. Morse refers to George by his Russian name "Yuri". The following is an excerpt of Transformed by the Light which describes George's observation of an infant while George is out of his body.

"[During Yuri's NDE, he] could go visit his family. He saw his grieving wife and their two sons, both too small to understand that their father had been killed.

"Then he visited his next-door neighbor. They had a new child, born a couple of days before Yuri's "death." Yuri could tell that they were upset by what happened to him. But they were especially distressed by the fact that their child would not stop crying.

"No matter what they did he continued to cry. When he slept it was short and fitful and then he would awaken, crying again. They had taken him back to the doctors but they were stumped. All the usual things such as colic were ruled out and they sent them home hoping the baby would eventually settle down.

"While there in this disembodied state, Yuri discovered something:

"l could talk to the baby. It was amazing. I could not talk to the parents - my friends - but I could talk to the little boy who had just been born. I asked him what was wrong. No words were exchanged, but I asked him maybe through telepathy what was wrong. He told me that his arm hurt. And when he told me that, I was able to see that the bone was twisted and broken."


"The baby had a greenstick fracture, a break in the bone in his arm probably cause by having been twisted during childbirth. Now Yuri and the baby knew what was wrong, but neither had the ability to communicate the problem to the parents.

"Eventually the doctor from Moscow came to perform the autopsy on Yuri. When they moved his body from the cabinet to a gurney, his eyes flickered. The doctor became suspicious and examined his eyes. When they responded to light, he was immediately wheeled to emergency surgery and saved.

"Yuri told his family about being "dead." No one believed him until he began to provide details about what he saw during his travels out of body. Then they became less skeptical. His diagnosis on the baby next door did the trick. He told of visiting them that night and of their concern over their new child. He told them that he had talked to the baby and discovered that he had a greenstick fracture of his arm. The parents took the child to a doctor and he x-rayed the arm only to discover that Yuri's very long-distance diagnosis was right."

RE: Prove to me....

Krimsa,

I had no idea that you had read that account before as your specifications were of someone being only dead for 2 days decomposing. This is why I have pushed you to give me very specific and not general criteria to use. You really have changed several times. I would truly prefer that once again, you would just outline criteria of which you think is fair and let's both see if we can come up to an agreement, even if you told me that you did this earlier. Just refresh my mind please.

Certainly 3 days in a morgue after clinical death has been established and then the body coming back to life on it's own without medical science jumpstarting it, is rather beyond the realms of medical science know how as we know it. Spontaneously coming back to life? You would have to admit that as rather odd, wouldn't you? CPR was not done. How would you explain it when this atheist literally states that he had a personal experience with God? There is nothing in science to explain that phenomenon. For an avowed atheist such as George Rodonaia, a neuropathologist working for the Soviet Academy of Science and a research psychiatrist at the University of Moscow. He was a man of earthly science and yet he lay dead in a morgue and his mind was still going and living experiences? Evidently, the mind is something separate from the brain, perhaps the mind or spirit or soul what some may call it...just inhabits the brain and perhaps it what gives the body the spark of life to be alive. Because if someone is brain dead and they come back to life and tell what went on while they were clinically dead, that should prove that there is something more out there. Perhaps the saying, "God gives life and God taketh life" does come into play here.

I doubt truly that a person who does not believe in God that you would ever acknowledge the existence of God, even based on Rodonaia's experience. Because the experience of God is very personal and manifest itself in different experiences in life for everyone, although some have similar but not identical experiences. If you ever have a NDE personal experience yourself, I have a feeling that you would be trying to convince everyone of the existence of God rather than the non existence.JMO here Krim. I would hope that no one would discredit your experience and insist that it cannot be.

RE: Prove to me....

Anyone who has had such an experience of God, who has felt such a profound sense of connection with the reality, knows that there is only one truly significant work to do in life and that is love; to love nature, to love people, to love animals, to love creation itself, just because it is. To serve God’s creation with a warm and loving hand of generosity and compassion – that is the only meaningful existence.

Many people turn to those who have had near death experiences because they sense we have the answers. But I know this is not true, at least no entirely. None of us will fully fathom the great truths of life until we finally unite with eternity at death. But in the meantime, it is our very nature to seek answers to our deepest questions about the near death experience and immortality.

pg 3

RE: Prove to me....

The next thing that happened was that I saw all these molecules flying around, atoms, protons, neutrons, just flying everywhere. On the one hand, it was totally chaotic, yet what brought me such great joy was that this chaos also had its own symmetry. This symmetry was beautiful and unified and whole, and it flooded me with tremendous joy. I saw the universal form of life and nature laid out before my eyes. It was at this point that any concern I had for my body just slipped away, because it was clear to me that I didn’t need it anymore -- that it was actually a limitation.

Everything in this experience merged together, so it is difficult for me to put an exact sequence to events. Time as I had known it came to a halt; past, present and future were somehow fused together for me in the timeless unity of life.

At some point, I underwent what has been called the “life-review process,” for I saw my life from beginning to end all at once. I participated in the real life dramas of my life, almost like a holographic image of my life going on before me – no sense of past, present or future, just now and the reality of my life. It wasn’t as though it started with birth and ran along to my life at the University of Moscow. It all appeared at once. There I was. This was my life. I didn’t experience any sense of guilt or remorse for things I’d done. I didn’t feel one way or another about my failures, faults or achievements. All I felt was my life for what it is. And I was content with that. I accepted my life for what it is.

During this time, the light just radiated a sense of peace and joy to me. It was very positive. I was so happy to be in the light. And I understood what the light meant. I learned that all the physical rules for human life were nothing when compared to this universal reality. I also came to see that a black hole is only another part of that infinity which is light. I came to see that reality is everywhere. This is not simply the earthly life but the infinite life. Everything is not only connected together, everything is also one. So I felt a wholeness with the light, a sense that all is right with me and the universe.

So there I was, flooded with all these good things and this wonderful experience, when someone begins to cut into my stomach. Can you imagine? What had happened was that I was taken to the morgue. I was pronounced dead and left there for three days. An investigation into the cause of my death was set up, so they sent someone out to do an autopsy on me. As they began to cut into my stomach, I felt as though some great power took hold of my neck and pushed me down. And it was so powerful that I opened my eyes and had this huge sense of pain. My body was cold and I began to shiver. They immediately stopped the autopsy and took me to the hospital where I remained for the following nine months, most of which I spent under a respirator.

Slowly, I regained my health. But I would never be the same again, because all I wanted to do for the rest of my life was study wisdom. This new interest led me to attend the University of Georgia where I took my second Ph.D., in the psychology of religion. Then I became a priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Eventually, in 1989, we came to America and I am now working as an associate pastor at the First United Methodist Church in Nederland, Texas.


pg 2

RE: Prove to me....

Krimsa,
I'm just dropping in for a few mins here. There was an avowed atheist named George Rodonaia who had a NDE and came back to tell it after 3 days of being dead. He was clinically dead for all purposes but here is only a brief of his story. Look at or just google his name in.

BTW, when all bodily functions including brain stem functions cease to exist, the body immediately starts decomposing. It starts slowing cooling and rigor mortis sets in fairly soon. So putting someone in the refrigerated morgue after complete clinical death to slow down the decomposition(until burial and open wakes are done) and them coming back to life with a NDE to talk about is truly beyond medical science understanding. Too many ND experiences relate the same type of story but these people do not know each other. Now I'm not so sure that is explainable to science when these people do not know each other.
I believe that our body is on loan to us by God but that spirit or soul part of God is put into each and every one of us. Perhaps that would explain people coming back to tell of the God experience or the part MikeHD spoke of about Jesus as God in the body of man.

Dr. Rodonaia underwent one of the most extended cases of a “clinical near death experience” ever recorded. Pronounced dead immediately after he was hit by a car in 1976, he was left for three days in a morgue. He did not “return to life” until a doctor began to make an incision in his abdomen as part of an autopsy.

Another notable feature of Dr. Rodonaia’s near death experience – and this is common to many – is that he was radically transformed by it. Prior to his near death experience, he worked as a neuropathologist. He was also an avowed atheist. Yet after the experience, he devoted himself exclusively to studying the psychology of religion. He then became an ordained priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Today he serves as an associate pastor at the First united Methodist Church in Nederland, Texas.

“The first thing I remember about my near death experience is that I discovered myself in a realm of total darkness. I had no physical pain; I was still somehow aware of my existence as George, and all about me there was darkness, utter and complete darkness – the greatest darkness ever, darker than any dark, blacker than any black. This was what surrounded me and pressed upon me. I was horrified! I wasn’t prepared for this at all. I was shocked to find that I still existed, but I didn’t know where I was. The one thought that kept rolling through my mind was, ‘How can I be when I’m not?’ That is what troubled me.

Slowly, I got a grip on myself and began to think about what had happened, what was going on. But nothing refreshing or relaxing came to me. Why am I in this darkness? What am I to do? Then I remembered Descartes famous line: ‘I think, therefore, I am.’ And that took a huge burden off me, for it was then I knew for certain I was still alive, although obviously in a very different dimension. Then I thought, ‘If I am, why shouldn’t I be positive?’ That is what came to me. I am George and I’m in darkness, but I know I am. I am what I am. I must not be negative.

Then I thought, ‘How can I define what is positive in darkness?’ Well, positive is light. Then, suddenly, I was in light; bright, white, shinny and strong; a very bright light. It was like the flash of a camera, but not flickering – that bright. Constant brightness. At first I found the brilliance of the light painful. I couldn’t look directly at it. But little by little, I began to feel safe and warm, and everything suddenly seemed fine.

pg 1

RE: Prove to me....

It has not been accomplished based on the criteria I just listed above. Even if it had, who would take the credit for it? The Christians? The Muslims? The Wiccans? The Satanists? Every religious sect on the planet more than likely.(quote Krimsa)


If it is established that a dead person can be revived, then it is you that would have to admit to the existence of God. Sure, other religions will to but that isn't the issue because they already believe in God and miracles. So you would be the one to have to give the credit to God. I missed realizeing this point the other day as you wrote this question. It threw me off guard.

RE: Prove to me....

Ok, you keep changing the criteria. Now you want to see someone who is rotting in an apt as being brought back to life. Perhaps you could give more specific criteria that you want to see occur that would give you proof of God's existence and don't change from that if someone does give you an answer that it has occurred. Once you have established that criteria and someone gives you the proof, you would have to concede to the existence of God,eh? And that would be based on your own statement that you made. If not, then there would be no need to develop any criteria.

So far you have gone from criteria of just the general raising of the dead to now saying a couple of days to low temps and now to rotting corpses in room temp to :"Breaking any recorded medical records for length of time that someone was clinically dead. That would fall into the realm of "defying medical science" as you stated."

It's not fair to keep changing your criteria when you are given an explanation everytime. Please be very specific with something we can both agree on and then it will be easier to see if indeed anything has occurred to date or whether we will both be watching for the news of events in the future relating to our topic. Either way, it's for both of us to find the common ground and go from there. Sound fair to you? So do you want to include several variables or literally only stick to the one variable of time, in the "Breaking any recorded medical records for length of time that someone was clinically dead?" If you only want the variable of time, then it's OK with me. Just be specific to state what you know to be the longest time someone was clinically dead that has been revived so we have a common understanding of the specific variable of the amount of time you are talking about.

But one thing we should probably agree on is that there are things that science cannot explain. If that is stated in a medical article, would that be a possibility that a supernatural type of occurance may be attributed to something akin to explaining an act of God's doing?

I probably won't get back to you today as I have a busy weekend that I am preparing for now. Look forwards to dialoging with you and hopefully we will both give this subject some thought.

RE: Prove to me....

Thank you for clarifying that you mean several days although several days is still not a very specific number. I am speaking of people being revived who are clinically dead in every sense of the word Krimsa. Your ownly criteria you listed is falling through the ice. Yes, people have been revived from the low temps that keep them in a suspended animation of sorts. That I'm not doubting. People are put into a sort of suspended animation to do heart repairs or even heart transplants.

But a person such as that baby who was born into this world totally clinically dead is something different Krimsa, whether it be minutes, hours or days is not the point. The point is that it is scientific proven clinical death that is being reversed by man. That child was literally raised from the dead since it was born clinically dead. So yes, man can raise the dead. You yourself said the following:

I stated that IF today, someone was capable of raising either an animal or human from the dead, I would accept that as proof. But there are several variables involved. Proof of what? Which god? Would it be a human who is accomplishing this feat?{quote Krimsa}



I think the point being made regarding people being raised from the dead perhaps to some religious people may tie in with religious thought that man is made in the image(meaning not only in looks) of God and that God is in all of us. Since biblical writings speak of God giving life and taking life through human doings that he directs, one can infer that man is doing some of God's work in science in bringing the dead back to life. Perhaps God to others is an omnipresent deity or life force that does feats through humans. People might call God Jesus, Budda, Allah.

In a different way of thinking, I must tell you that the first time I saw a human baby being born via cesaerian section and suddenly start breathing on it's own and crying, I was literally breathless in awe.(most parents will think the same about seeing their child being born) I couldn't stop thinking what it is that breathes the life into a living being and enables them to develop and think on their own. Where does that spark of life come from? It's one thing to develop a clone in a test tube but when that clone comes to life and is able to think and reason in time...I can't help but to believe there is something beyond the realm of medical science at hand there. Perhaps one of God's works that is taken for granted? Surely you have wondered some of those thoughts when you see your animals being born?

Perhaps when I have some time, I will try to find the article on the lady who was dead and came back to life on her own. It defied medical science. I do believe there are things that medical science can not explain.

In answer to your questions, I believe that no one particular religion would claim the raising of the dead as their own. I believe they all would say that it is the work of God. You may have heard the term, "God works in mysterious ways" when there is something that defies medical science.

RE: Prove to me....

You didn't specify how long someone should be dead for before they get raised Krimsa. I would believe you know for a fact that people that are clinically dead for periods of time have been resusitated. And even stranger things happen when people who have been clinically dead occassionally have come back to life, thus defying science. Also, how does one explain the Near Death Experience where people are clinically dead and go through the tunnel and see the light and describe the warmth, peace, colors and see an omnipotent being. I have known 2 people who had that experience. Their lives were changed forever after that. Maybe the article below is "That someone" who has already accomplished the feat of raising the dead.

Somewhere I just read something recently that a dog was put down and then revived back very successfully. Here is an example in 2007 of a clinically dead newborn brought back to life.

Tot born clinically dead is just fine
Monday, October 15, 2007
Mum Lucy Allen with little Oscar

A baby who was born clinically dead has made a full recovery.

Oscar Rose's mother had to have an emergency Caesarean after the baby's heart stopped beating in the womb.

Doctors spent eight minutes reviving him after his birth.

He then spent nine days in intensive care amid fears that he would be brain damaged.

Tests have given him the all clear and, five weeks on, he is at home in York with mother Lucy Allen, father Stephen Rose and stepsister Ella, 12.

There was also an article recently that made the news(think it was CNN) that a woman was clinically dead and in cold storage at a funeral home. Just before she was to get embalmed, someone noticed some signs of life in her and she made a full return to life. I did not save the article as I didn't figure I'd ever need to post it but it was interesting to read.

RE: Move Israel to the USA

No brainwashing on an agricultural kibbutz Ray. Just plenty of clean air, blue skies, communal dinners, lots of comaraderie without the heavy worries....picking grapefruits is good for stress relief. And great for the economy. You'll be adding to the the GNP and exportation quotas. I doubt it's a delusional lifestyle, perhaps more like a healthier lifestyle. Unless...you're on a kibbutz near Gaza!! Oy va!!

RE: Prove to me....

Yes Mercedes, the great man Drewski is here. He'll gladly wait for your return from the loo. He won't let you down

RE: AMERICA'S GOAL TO CRIPPLE WORLD ECO. TO START A 1 WORLD MONEY SYSTEM W. IMPLANTED DIGITAL CHIP?

Very funny and cute Conrad! This gave me a good laugh for the day.

RE: Can a rational person beilieve in the Bible? or any religion?

Baloney! If you're rejecting someone's assertion, then prove them wrong for crying out loud. The fact that you are asserting something for or against an idea or fact, it is up to both to prove what they say. If only one person proves what they say and the other says, "I don't have to." Then it is a given that a person who has given proof is the one to be believed.(since no one can challenge them with evidence to disprove what they say). Saying, "I don't have to prove it" is not equivalent to the answer, "This is my proof that your answer is wrong."

If you're on a debating team, both sides have proof of the validity of their argument. Both sides work hard to prove the validity of their argument while disproving the validity of the opponents argument. That is the essence of the debates I have seen.

RE: Can a rational person beilieve in the Bible? or any religion?

Calmheart,

I agree with you! IMO,I think that people that say God doesn't exist, try to use a cop out and say, "I don't have to prove it because it's a negative assertion." That's a cheap way of saying, "I don't know how to prove that he doesn't exist, but I will make the assertion that he doesn't, my thinking is right and that is a fact...no further proof is needed to validate my way of thinking." That is the essence of what they are saying.

When both people make an assertion for their belief as you have stated above in your posting, then it is the responsibility of both parties to substantiate their proof. I am quite in agreeance with that thought. A fair debate should do this, anything other would be a cheap cop out.
Krimsa summed it up quite well with her statement although she often does not follow this: THE EVIDENCE HAS TO BE PROVIDED BY THE PARTY MAKING THE ASSERTION.
So whether something is a positive assertion(God exists) or a negative assertion(God doesn't exist), both should show their evidence.

RE: Prove to me....

Ohhhh, sounds like a challenge to Krimsa NeWildflower. Now that is quite an observation. For awhile there, I thought I was the only one to notice that about her.