Hellooooo Hugz, I'm not answering any questions that you are personally asking Drew.Those are for you both to work with. And I think he has been answering his questions quite well. In this case here, I am merely stating to you that you also have unanswered questions from me. I am not budding into your back and forth question and answer session with giving answers on behalf of Drew. Yet Ray answered questions that I asked you directly. That made me question either who is who way on back.
Look, if you are truly an educated person, you will take a look again at the posting you are griping about that I wrote. If you still believe I am answering Drew's questions, then you bring me and anyone else reading your post to believe that "you don't know your tushie from a hole in the ground." I'm trying to be polite but I don't know how else to tell you. Some people might be a bit cruder, but I am trying to keep it somewhat civil. Anyone reading this forum will laugh like heck at what you just wrote to me because you make absolutely no sense what you have just written and stated. C'mon, remove your blinders and wake up already!!!
Hugz In response to: You didn't answer my question...which First Nation are you from????
You're right I didn't. One thing at a time and your tardiness in addressing my rebuttals to your four day old post is not about to get my answer any faster.
(CONTENTS OF DIALOGUE OF DREWSKI AND HUGZ)
Hugz,
I've been in line waiting for you to answer my questions to you from page 21 of this forum that goes back to Jan 31st. Appreciate ya taking a look back if ya don't mind. I've been rather patient.
Your idea is very nice. I suppose that if we all here had the answer, there would be no opposing views to discuss and hence no need for a Gaza thread. However, in the real world with the 2 governments, living together in harmony cannot discussed or anything towards peace with Hamas since Hamas doesn't recongnize Israel's right to exist. Read the Hamas charter and that should answer your question. In reality with CSers here, no matter what our personal political differences, I do believe that most are probably genuinely decent people in real life. Even the ones that I spar with here a bit .
If Americans Knew was originally founded by an American freelance journalist, Alison Weir*, who traveled independently throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip in February and March of 2001. Ms. Weir found a situation largely the reverse of what was being reported by the American media. Upon further examination of this issue – she read dozens of books on the topic – she found that the U.S. press portrayal was significantly at odds with information being reported by media throughout the rest of the world.
“Ms. Weir presents a powerful, well documented view of the Middle East today. She is intelligent, careful, and critical. American policy makers would benefit greatly from hearing her first-hand observations and attempting to answer the questions she poses.”
Tom Campbell, Former Congressman and Dean of Haas School of Business
Disturbed that American citizens were being misinformed and uninformed on one of the most significant issues affecting them today, and discovering the problem to be systemic, she founded an organization to be directed by Americans without bias and ethnic ties to the region who would research and actively disseminate accurate information to the American public.
Allison Weir could stand in front of the bulldozers for all I care. She obviously hasn't been introduced to the tunnels under Gaza and all the lethal weaponry in there, nor the civilian Israeli casualties of terrorist suicide bombings. I highly doubt that Hamas would have any intentions of showing a westerner where the tunnels are or what is in them unless she can prove her loyalty by strapping a bomb to herself. Doubt she'd go that far to defend her stance. If she would take a serious look and see the impact on the Israeli side, then I would give her some credibility to what she says. She has been in Gaza and The West Bank according to the posting above so she forms her views on what she sees in those 2 areas back in 2001 as the article says. Until she can see the situation from the other side too, then maybe she would be somewhat believeable. Otherwise, she's just another propaganda website.
The Palestinian people have not gone to another people’s homeland to kill or dispossess. Our ambition is not to blow ourselves up in order to terrify others.(Quote from Hugz posting)
Are you really expecting us here to buy those 2 statements? Get real, pull the blinders off your eyes now! The coverup "Let's pretend" game is over sweetheart!!
The tunnels have secret hidden doors that go into the homes and buildings directly. That is the way that Hamas militants are able to move from building to building so quickly without coming out into the open to show themselves. So of course what is left out in the open is the general civilian population. Bulldozing means that now the opening to a tunnel is actually exposed or the tunnel gets caved in at that point. It would be nice if the tunnels could be destroyed without tearing down a home, but that is not possible. There is just too many. When you read Rizlareds post about the amount of rockets tht have been fired into Israel, you will get a very good idea of the extent of the tunnels throughout Gaza and how much they can hold. And that is only in that time parameter. Not too mention over the last 8 yrs how much has been fired over into Israel. Your question is a very good one I might add.
In addition to what I wrote above, I will add that if any so called peace activist wants to stand in the way of the bulldozers as they are bulldozing the homes or buildings with the tunnels underneath, then they deserve to get bulldozed over too. As far as I'm concerned, they are only there to support Hamas's hiding of weapons for the total destruction of Israel if they try to block the bulldozers from doing their job.
Sorry Hugz that I am reprinting something I just posted a few hours ago that you may not have read yet.
Here is the reason for Israel bulldozing some of the homes in Gaza. To avoid detection of the tunnels, the Palestinians build them in civilian homes. In 2002, the IDF discovered 33 tunnels and, through mid-October 2003, another 36 were found. These tunnels connected Gaza and Egypt. Large-scale Israeli operations against the tunnels coincide with intelligence reports that the Palestinians were attempting to smuggle more sophisticated weapons such as Katyusha rockets and Stinger missiles. And yes, the Katyusha rockets have been fired. And a tunnel built coming from Lebanon was used to abduct Israeli soldiers. And as of todays BBC news, we now have the newer Grad rockets hitting on Ashkeon. So Hugz, c'mon, let's be real here...where in the heck do you think the Grad rockets are coming from? They didn't show up until after the temporary cease fire with Israel. So one can pretty well deduct that they have been coming through tunnels under Gaza that still haven't been found by the Israelis. The Israelis did not exactly go through every building in Gaza where the civilians have taken refuge. So please do not use the excuse that palestinian homes are bulldozed for land grab. If a tunnel is found under a home, then it should be bulldozed. Period! And I stand firm on that belief too!! And if every building and home in Gaza has a tunnel, then every building and home needs bulldozed! And I don't care if ya don't like what I'm saying here.
Now this thing of Hamas having weapons when Hugz said that they weren't a military is rather interesting. They do have an exiled Hamas military leader Maashal that is directing their operations I believe. Or am I mistaken on that one? Somehow, I think that maybe your question can be directed to Hugz? She seems to have all the answers. Now you got me wondering too how she can explain this situation?
Just saw this on the BBC news. Israeli planes hit Gaza tunnels. The air raids on Gaza came after a Grad rocket hit the Israeli city of Ashkelon. Israeli planes have bombed smuggling tunnels on Gaza's border with Egypt, the Israeli military says. Ashkelon, a city of 122,000 people, is 12 km (7 miles) from northern Gaza. The city is out of range of the standard rockets and mortars fired by Palestinian militants. The two attacks are the latest from both sides since they declared separate ceasefires on 18 January after a three-week Israeli assault on the Gaza Strip. Israel had warned of a harsh response to any further rocket fire from Gaza after the long-range Grad rocket hit Ashkelon on Tuesday. It is the first attack on Israel involving a Grad rocket since the 18 January ceasefires. Other rockets and mortars have been launched from Gaza, however, and Israel has bombed targets in the narrow coastal territory.
"I suggest Hamas doesn't fool around with us," said Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak.
Let us pretend for a moment that Hamas is being asked to recognize Israel in the normal diplomatic sense. In this case, however, the EU position is unsupportable, because diplomatic recognition of a state routinely requires one bit of vital information: "right to exist" where? Israel's borders are not set. It is entirely legitimate for Hamas to require firm confirmation of Israel's borders before recognizing it. It should also be incumbent on the international community to confirm where those borders will be before insisting that Hamas recognize Israel's "right" to them.(quote-HiFidelity posting)
Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist at all so confirming Israels borders as a Hamas condition for Palestinian statehood is a moot point. Please read the Hamas constitution. Drewski has posted parts of it on this forum several pages back. So I have to agree with HF's posting in the respect that it is only a pretend moment that Hamas would ever recognize Israel in any diplomatic sense. Hamas constitution does not allow for diplomatic negotiations to recognize Israel ever. Hamas can't even hold up to their word on a truce they agree on to stop firing rockets into Israel. They seem to do a lot of pretend moments to try to fool the world into thinking they want peace. And then Israel looks like the bad guy when blasting Hamas back? Nah, I don't think so!! JMO here!
Ma'ale Adumin is a suburb of Israel’s capital, barely three miles outside Jerusalem’s city limits, a ten-minute drive away. It is also the largest Jewish city in the territories. The Gush Etzion Bloc consists of 18 communities just 10 minutes from Jerusalem. Jews lived in this area prior to 1948, but the Jordanian Legion destroyed the settlements and killed 240 women and children during Israel’s War of Independence. After Israel recaptured the area in 1967, descendants of those early settlers reestablished the community. Ariel is the heart of the second most populous bloc of settlements. The city is located just 25 miles east of Tel Aviv and 31 miles north of Jerusalem. Ariel and the surrounding communities expand Israel's narrow waist (which was just 9 miles wide prior to 1967) and ensure that Israel has a land route to the Jordan Valley in case Israel needs to fight a land war to the east. It is more controversial than the other consensus settlements because it is the furthest from the 1949 Armistice Line, extending approximately 12 miles into the West Bank. Nevertheless, Barak’s proposal at Camp David included Ariel among the settlement blocs to be annexed to Israel; the Clinton plan also envisioned incorporating Ariel within Israel's borders.
Yes, I have to agree that there is a double edge sword with the Palestinian/Israeli situation with the U.N. especially in regards to the children. While the UN routinely adopts resolutions critical of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians, it has never adopted a single resolution unequivocally condemning violence against Israeli citizens. One of the most dramatic examples of the U.N.'s double-standard came in 2003 when Israel offered a draft resolution in the General Assembly for the first time in 27 years.
The resolution called for the protection of Israeli children from terrorism, but it did not receive enough support from the members of the General Assembly to even come to a vote. Israel had introduced the resolution in response to the murder of dozens of Israeli children in terrorist attacks, and after a similar resolution had been adopted by a UN committee (later adopted by the full Assembly) calling for the protection of Palestinian children from “Israeli aggression.”
And this now leads to the question that really adds to the extra double edge. How is it that the U.N. calls for protection of the Palestinian children while turning a blind eye to the fact that they are trained from childhood to strap bombs to themselves and shoot a gun to kill Jews? The Hamas military training videos that they have very proudly released for the world to see validate that these children are indeed armed to the hilt with guns. Guess the U.N. must have turned a blind eye to the use of child soldiers in that case.
Here is the reason for Israel bulldozing some of the homes in Gaza. To avoid detection of the tunnels, the Palestinians build them in civilian homes. In 2002, the IDF discovered 33 tunnels and, through mid-October 2003, another 36 were found. These tunnels connected Gaza and Egypt. Large-scale Israeli operations against the tunnels coincide with intelligence reports that the Palestinians were attempting to smuggle more sophisticated weapons such as Katyusha rockets and Stinger missiles. And yes, the Katyusha rockets have been fired. And a tunnel built coming from Lebanon was used to abduct Israeli soldiers.
Attacks against Israeli citizens are often treated by the media in an entirely different way than similar atrocities committed against other nationalities. Many press outlets are reluctant to call attacks against Jews terrorism and frequently attach more benign labels to the murderers such as “gunmen” or “militants.” For example, when a Palestinian woman walked into a crowded beach restaurant in Haifa and detonated a bomb that killed 21 people, including four children on October 4, 2003, the Reuters account said she had waged an “attack” and that the bombing showed that Palestinian officials had failed to “rein in the militants.”
One of the best examples of how the press sometimes distinguishes terrorist attacks against other nations was a list of “recent terror attacks around the world” disseminated in November 2003 by the Associated Press. The list cited 15 terrorist incidents during the five-year period between August 1998 and August 2003. During that period, more than 800 Israelis were murdered in terrorist attacks, but not one of the incidents in Israel made the list. Similarly, when AP released its Year in Photos 2003, six of the 130 photos chosen related to human suffering in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. All six were of Palestinians.REUTERS, AP, THE NEW YORK TIMES FORGET ISRAEL
Both the two biggest news agencies in the world, Reuters and AP, continue to ignore terror against Israel. (Almost every major news outlet in the world relies on one or both of these agencies for its core foreign news leads.)
I attach below, "Reuters chronology - Worst guerrilla attacks since September 11" (November 9, 2003, Reuters), that accompanied its reports of Saturday's suicide bombing in Saudi Arabia..
Pakistan, Tunisia, Yemen, Bali, Kenya, Chechen attacks in Moscow, attacks against Indians in Bombay. These are all included, but none of the terrorist attacks in Israel, many of which resulted in more death and injury than those cited by Reuters.
Furthermore, the Associated Press, in its bulletin "Recent Terror Attacks Around the World" (November 8, 2003) also omits reference to Israel, while including attacks in the Philippines, Kenya, Yemen and elsewhere. (Associated Press bulletin attached below).
Honest Reporting, the media watchdog organization that today also draws attention to the AP bulletin (though not to the Reuters one), points out that the New York Times Online also devotes a special section to world terror that leaves out attacks in Israel.
Oops, I repeated myself. It's late at night so I'm going to shut down for the night. I made all my points clear in the first Rachael Corrie posting. Disregard the next one.
This in in reference to Rachael Corrie. You're free to travel Israel but if you want to go there to assist the terrorists, under the guise of a peace activist tourist, then you will be a persona non-grata.
An autopsy was conducted on March 24, 2003 at Israel's National Center of Forensic Medicine in Tel Aviv. The final report was not released publicly, but in their report on the matter Human Rights Watch asserts a copy was provided to them by Craig Corrie, with a translation supplied by the U.S. Department of State. In the report they quote Professor Yehuda Hiss, who performed the autopsy, as concluding that "her death was caused by pressure on the chest (mechanical asphyxiation) with fractures of the ribs and vertebrae of the dorsal spinal column and scapulas, and tear wounds in the right lung with hemorrhaging of the pleural cavities."
On June 26, 2003, the Jerusalem Post quoted an Israeli military spokesman as saying that Corrie had not been run over and that the driver had not seen her:
"The driver at no point saw or heard Corrie. She was standing behind debris which obstructed the view of the driver and the driver had a very limited field of vision due to the protective cage he was working in... The driver and his commanders were interrogated extensively over a long period of time with the use of polygraph tests and video evidence. They had no knowledge that she was standing in the path of the tractor. An autopsy of Corrie's body revealed that the cause of death was from falling debris and not from the tractor physically rolling over her. It was a tragic accident that never should have happened."
Yes, you can travel freely in Israel. But if one comes to Israel to assist the terrorists using the guise of being a peace activist, then you will be a persona non grata. Now that should be a simple thing to comprehend I hope.
The Israeli army's report, which was seen by the The Guardian, said that the army was searching for explosives in the border zone when Corrie was "struck as she stood behind a mound of earth that was created by an engineering vehicle operating in the area and she was hidden from the view of the vehicle's operator who continued with his work. Corrie was struck by dirt and a slab of concrete resulting in her death ... The finding of the operational investigations shows that Rachel Corrie was not run over by an engineering vehicle but rather was struck by a hard object, most probably a slab of concrete which was moved or slid down while the mound of earth which she was standing behind was moved," (The Guardian, April 14, 2003).
Corrie's parents tried to sue Catepillar Co. in the U.S. for the fault that the driver was unable to see Corrie. The suit was thrown out of court. Her parents were almost kidnapped in Gaza by militants looking for American hostages.
"The International Solidarity Movement, to which Corrie belonged, was directly responsible for illegal behavior and conduct in the area of Corrie's death and their actions directly led to this tragedy."
The State Department warned Americans not to travel to Gaza, and Israel made clear that civilians who enter areas where troops are engaged in counter-terror operations put themselves unnecessarily at risk.
The ISM does not hide its incitement to violence. Asif Mohammad Hanif and Omar Khan Sharif were British nationals of ISM. They carried out a suicide bombing in a pub next to the American Embassy in Tel Aviv that is frequented by Embassy personnel. Hanif and Sharif entered Israel under the guise of “peace activists” and “alternative tourism” On March 27, 2003, ISM was caught harboring Islamic Jihad terrorist Shadi Sukiya. He was arrested by the IDF in ISM's office, where a handgun was also found, after two foreign ISM activists helped Sukiya hide. These foreign activists tried to bar IDF soldiers from entering ISM offices, knowing that Sukia was there.
And I don't care for you either Hugz!! And I don't care for the dribble you write either. Nor do I really care if you've been here on CS 3 years or 20 years. You do keep your eyes closed. If ya want some eye openers, try going to Israel and meet some civilian survivors of the suicide bombers or the Lod airport bombings back in the 70s. Well I did. The Islamic terrorist agenda: their annihilation because they are Jews. Israel is open for tourism. You're free to travel there. But you may not be so easily able to travel and speak your mind freely in some of the Arabic countries. You're a woman, western and outspoken.Islamic culture is very male dominated.You will be treated well if you "stay in line." If ya want to criticize the Jews, that is your right. But in the end, hopefully you will realize that the Jews and Israel are not going to move their state nor are they going to perish as a people.And their medicine, science and education are pretty good too. And they are not going to continue to allow themselves to get their civilians shot at without blasting back. They are a tough bunch to survive 1000s of years of oppression and annihilation agenda though. You have to admit that. And if not, then you really are walking around with your eyes closed.
Sorry, I don't buy into alot of the crap that you and others have flagrantly posted. It's all masked as Jew hate. My eyes are wide open lady and have been all along. I'm not going to start cut n pasting 1000s of pages of books, web sites, videos of the history of the oppression, murder and annihilation of my people over 1000s of years. It would far outdo any of the Hamas propaganda that has been posted here. If you really cared about oppression and genocide and could identify with it, then perhaps start really digging into the history of the Jewish people from their perspective for a change. You just might find that their story is also your story....but just that it goes on for a much longer time in history. If for once you ever really seriously did that, then I might give you some credibility to your rantings. My eyes have been wide open sister, yours have been closed or narrowed with blinders right from the start. You say you take up for the oppressed. Go study the Jewish history for a change. And don't try to lay the trip on me that the Jews are committing holocaust to Palestinians. As some CSers pointed out to you specifically, you need to read the Hamas charter as it pertains to Israel.
I don't think that any Hamas does anything wrong. Do you? At least that's what they are telling the world and trying to make everyone believe. Nothing is their fault ever, never never their fault. Absolutely nothing. They make no mistakes ever. Everything is only Israel's fault and therefore Israel must be held accountable and be anihilated from this earth. Now if anyone believes that, then they'd believe that a cow can jump over the moon. Somehow, this is the palestinian message that I seem to be getting from reading all the stuff some of the CSers are posting. Not sure I buy into Hamas innocense though. But evidently, many of the CSers do through the eyes and articles of Al-Jazeera. Now let's hope some CSer doesn't lift only part of one of my sentences, highlight and bold it and pull things out of context. That usually is the case I've noticed.
Conrad, that is some pretty heavy stuff on that site. Guess it shows the different ways people interpret the Koran laws. Wow, it's pretty graphic and brutal.
Even when no doubt exists that terrorism in the form of deliberately targeting children and kids in buses, pizza parlors and such has no military value and is pure crimes against humanity. (Quote Drewski)
How can these people who commit the crimes ever be tried? They've blown themselves up so there can be no questions asked who was responsible to set them up to do the dirty deed. The case is basically closed with their death. And the annihilation of the civilian Jews goes on with the next bomber using the same OP. Hamas leaders will never be tried by Islamic countries for crimes against humanity to the Jews or even their own people. At best, they will die by Israeli missles, old age or illness. Doubt they have the courage to blow themselves up with a bomb vest but will joyfully want others to do what they themselves can't face up to do. JMO here!
BTW, do any of the Hamas go on trial for crimes committed against humanity by their own countrymen or other Islamic countries? Example of war crimes: deliberately shooting their own people, lobbing kassem rockets against civilian women and children who have done nothing to them but happen to live over the border, blowing up Israeli shcool buses of children, strapping bombs to their own people to let them explode apart and thus take out innocent women and children who happen to be in the area. This is not the action of trying to kill a military officer or military personell. This is more like deliberate annihilation of another country's people. So why yell Israel is annihilating palestinians when their own warriors are deliberately hiding amongst their people to fire their rockets? I'd say that when the warriors get blasted back, they know that their innocent civilians are going to be collateral damage.
And secondly, Hamas seems to believe it is appropriate to hide their faces amongst their civilians and with face coverings too? So why the mocking of the Israeli officers for not showing their faces? Shame on Hamas!!
You are probably right. But once people form their views, it's usually solid as stone....yes, even if they never read Hamas's charter. There is enough propaganda websites and twisted books out there to convince them. I've heard that if you repeat something long enough, you're going to probably remember it and start to even believe it. Seems human nature remembers the worst of things but tends to forget the best of things. Perhaps that is one reason why there are so many hate mongering web sites and books to match out there. So I guess that most people will go on with their shtick and play like they are the authority after reading so many of the crap websites and books. I agree, Hamas does not give a rat's patooti about their own people except to use them as cannon fodder for their political agenda. I feel very sad when I hear the palestinian people who want to live in peace and not under Hamas rule. They do not want their families killed but are trapped in Gaza. They risk either Hamas shooting them for their dissenting views or claiming they are Israeli collaborators... or they get killed as collateral damage in the rocket and artillery fire exchange. Either way they are doomed. For them, I truly do feel a saddness. They are the ones that really have no say in them matter at all.
I think Hugz has had it for the night. Perhaps you put her brain in the meat grinder too much and turned it into chopped liver? Oooh...you are a bad boy to do that to her. She seemed to be going in circles after a point and started getting mad at you because you could counter punch everything she said and with valid website info. BTW, noticed something on the news today that says that Hamas has been steadily firing rockets into Israel breaking the truce again. So the world can now see that Hamas can't even keep their own word. Steadily keep losing their credibility in the eyes of the world now. Guess they are looking to engage the Israelis again and get a few 1000 more of their civilians killed in collateral damage again. It's pretty sad when their Islamic brethren worked hard to help work out a truce to try to save their people... Hamas and Israel sign it and Hamas turns around and figures that's the green light to restart shooting and Israel won't shoot back. Gaza is in for one big surprise again. Guess Hamas will be yelling again, "Israel is killing our people. This is a palestinian holocaust."
Why do we "pay through the nose?" Why do we call Rhode Island an island when it isn't one? Who is Davy Jones and why is his locker at the bottom of the sea? Did 4 and 20 blackbirds really ever get baked into a pie? (Must have been one heck of a big meat pie of some sort) Has anyone found a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow? The saying when people are happy, "I'm on Cloud 9." Just where is cloud 9?
LILLYLADY Forum Posts (1,293)
to everyone here. Will followup with everyone again at another time.
RE: WHO IS OPPOSING PEACE IN GAZA ??
Hellooooo Hugz,I'm not answering any questions that you are personally asking Drew.Those are for you both to work with. And I think he has been answering his questions quite well.
In this case here, I am merely stating to you that you also have unanswered questions from me. I am not budding into your back and forth question and answer session with giving answers on behalf of Drew. Yet Ray answered questions that I asked you directly. That made me question either who is who way on back.
Look, if you are truly an educated person, you will take a look again at the posting you are griping about that I wrote. If you still believe I am answering Drew's questions, then you bring me and anyone else reading your post to believe that "you don't know your tushie from a hole in the ground." I'm trying to be polite but I don't know how else to tell you. Some people might be a bit cruder, but I am trying to keep it somewhat civil. Anyone reading this forum will laugh like heck at what you just wrote to me because you make absolutely no sense what you have just written and stated. C'mon, remove your blinders and wake up already!!!