Ship, first be safe thru Fay...be Fay be a Tropical Storm or Hurricane.
You call can the country wyz or abc......but then when you drive down road.....and pass church after church after church after church...all of them a Christian of one or another faith. It is easy come to conclusion that the country is Christian.
It is a very tolerant country that is open to all the other major and minor religions of the world....with the exception of a few very extreme ones. That clause in the Constitution...on separation of Church and State....allows for and makes for the enclusion of other faiths.
I am not trying to trap you into some Christian doctrine position or into some statement of faith. Not that I can. I state this from a abstract position of geo-political and gov't consultant, Ship. You go to many other countries and ask them....what is the predominate faith of the US? They will not be saying Islam, Jewish, Hindu or any other faith than Christian. The world precieves the US as Christian.
They mostly don't see this distinction that you do in the Constitution, that where country is 'non-religious' or 'religiously neutral' by the seperation of church and state clause. The rest of the world does not make the that preception.
I was surprised that Al- Jeezera would take a position from the Constitution on the seperation of Church and State. They know us well, Ship. And to be honest, we don't know them well enough.
But back to your concern about bowing to the religious right. Like Indy, I don't think that you have to worry about that with Obama. McCain.....his faith, Ship.....began back in that Vet Nam prison camp. It was tested and forged there. Can he be convulted by some Christian advisory group? Maybe. Depends on who, he lets close enough to has his trust and ear. Can Obama be convulted by some far left group? Yep, and I would be just as worried about that as a right wing group and McCain.
McCain just changed faiths by the way. He had been attending since returning from Vet Nam a Phoenix Pysbtertian Church.....and just moved to Southern Babtist. So it does not seem like he is locked into any one Christian doctrine or faith.
McCain seem to have done well in the Church Q&A from the news reports I have heard. Where Obama they are saying was 'uncomfrontable at times'. Do I think that McCain fits the Christian voter better then Obama? Yes, I would have to say that is accurate statement. But how does that equate to achieving a right wing Christian Theology, if he is President?
My easy answer to your question is this. if most of the country believed Barak Obama to be Muslim, he would not be where he is today. He would not have made it thru the primaries and running for the Presidency.
My more thoughtful answer is this. Americans have voted in Moslems into office. On a small percentage. So? Voting in a Moslem and showing support for a Christian canidate says what about the character of a people in a country? Maybe that they are pretty religiously tolerant.
Barak has has some Islamic groups support him....Hamas....for incidence....while he did not go out and raise a billboard accepting it.....he did not divorce himself completely from the endorsement either.
But honestly the day that the American Islamic Council runs a person for the Presidency......they will likely get a very small percentage of support from the American people. Just about like what a Christian running in Iraq, or Iran, or Egypt would. But to judge that country and its people on if they would support such is not really a fair question. Rather the question should be....can the American Islamic Council run a American (US Citizen) Moslem for the Presidency? The answer there is yes.
Try to put a Christian on the ballot for the Presidency of Iraq, Iran or Egypt. and see what happens.
Ship, one of the very first thing that they did after landing on the rock at Plymouth and after getting thru the surf a Jamestown.....was to build what? At both places they built churches.
Just because they were escaping religious persecution....which they were.....doesnot mean that were not religious themselves. They carried a different Christian faith than the ones that they were fleeing from.
Which an example of a enforced religion that is state sponsored? Check our most of the Islamic countries of the world. To the percentage of differnent religous make ups. Most Islamic countreis have Molsem believers in the 95+% rate. With Christianity and Jewish cmoing in the small digits. How did it get that way? You can find the data at the CIA worldbook website.
We know that at the time of the Jewish dispersal.....they went all over the known world at the time. We know that Christianity settle along both side of the Med with Churchs and groups at most every major city.
Yet today? Christianity and Jewish faiths are in the small digits (less than 5%) in these Islamic countries. How did it happen? State sponsored terrorism against the two groups, laws forcing Islam as a religion, and the local majority of Moslems just forcing them out. Think that it is not happening today. Check the southern Phillipine Islands......and what the group Abu Syrdar does there.
Anything like that happening in the US, Ship? No. We are tolerant and open to outside religions being here. We understand that the separation of state and church.....does mean that we will not impress a religion on the people. That religious tolerance is part of our country.
What I state is an example of where there is not separation of church and state. That is the ultimate end when it occurs. Most all faiths other than 'the one' are forced out of the country. Islam in the country has been increasing in percentage and in the Eruopean countries as well. Still a minority faith, but on the increase.
If tolerance was not being done. If state sponsoring of a faith was being done. If we held to a single state and church doctrine......then the increases percentages of Islamic would be just the opposite.....they would be decreasing.
Good debate Hugs. But let me show you were you are off some. Most of the time in the court room...where justice and mercy are being handed out....I agree. But let me give a example of a exception.
The Georgian/Russian conflict of recent. World leaders don't have a court room to debate this in, at of least yet. They had to go with a inne preceived opinions of right and wrong, their values and belief system....they had to reach and touch their beliefs and values on the meritc and validity both sides were saying was the cause.
I papered on it several times. Not from any data, evidence, or even 'right or wrong' of either's position....but just on things that I had learned over the years on the Russians, thier military operations and some of thier infrastructure. Things, I wanted us to remember as we got into this little shin kicker of a problem.
But GWB and McCain stood from early and then later on Obama was on that on principle the Russians were in the wrong with the accessive and disapportionate force that they had used compared to the cause they sited. They made a value and belief judgement call to what would be acceptable for such. Found the Russians to be outside that parameter. And then they (all three) could condem the Russian actions.
Sure advisors and consultants with papers maybe got into the process some. But it is still that leader making a gut decision to if this was morally right or wrong. Then being convicted enough that they needed to make a statement or position on it. Then finally coming out into the line of political fire and media questioning to hold that position and make the statement.
See the difference? See a exception?
They might have had evidence or testimony or satellite imagery even. BUT deep down inside until they developed that moral conviction that the Russians were in the wrong.....they could have ignored all of that....stayed quiet and stayed out of the political fray. There was no court here other than human and world opinion. No court room rules ....well make that Aussie rules:-)....they like to tell you that no matter where you are.
Hugs, we are a Christain country. Most of the elected officals in the country hold a Christian faith. They will reflect on a government decisions or vote with that faith. Some to a high degree and other to a lesser degree. It some ways, it is that simple.
Believes come into it more than you would like to know. I had submitted earlier a NASA proposal on a project. On the follow question from NASA....they asked if it was 'my belief' that this should be done.
It was a standard NASA form. Why do they put the question of 'belief' into it? Because they want to give grant funding to people that are dedicated to the proposal and purpose that the fund are being approriated for. If they are going to fund you, they want to a degree your heart and soul into that project.
Belief touches and has impact on just about everything one serious does in life. Asking a politician to abate his/her believes while in office is like asking them to walk to the council room blind. What I hear you are really saying, Hugs....is that we can PC our government to the point where their decisions don't reflect thier beliefs or ours.
I would be asking the government for at least $12-14 million grant to do this NASA project. Do you want the government to grant to a person that is 'kind of committed' to his project? or to one that is 'fully committed' to it? The same for a person in office. Do you want elected official 'kind of committed' to holding the office. Or ones that are 'fully committed' to doing the work? Beliefs play a major role in the commitments we take on. And the intensitity, dedication and determination that we place to them.jmo
Ship this country is so fractured to its political positions and religous believes that any one group.....religious right or far left or mid road moderate...non of them are going to have majority to calim control or power. None of them are strong enough to consolidate the power and control like Kholmeini did in Iran. They may have the appearance....and even great numbers...like the 60 million Christian voters mentioned in the earlier post.
But......those 60 million Christian voters are split between McCain and Obama ......so how could either canidate gain a advantage with a mere Q&A? Or how could the 60 million Christain voters ever honestly say to either canididate, 'we fully support you. now do our bidding'?
You have a right to state your opinions on the matter, Ship. I just don't see the danger and threat of a Q&A in a Church. Block voting and block representation by canidates......is there a big difference between that and representing your of the majority of constuients? Or having a majority of constuients support your positions?
What I find of interest here, Al-Jeereza being a Islamic media outlet. Has many Islamic Clerics to report on that preach hatred for America.....and that is a political message, yes?
I read Muslim websites on occassion, and have a not problem with you reading them as well.
But why the interest (of a Islamic media outlet) if two Christian politicians have a Christian church as a venue? Heck Ship, many of the Mosque have been used for weapons and explosive storage facilities around the Islamic world. That is even a step beyond being political into being militaristic and terroristic. How often does Al-Jeereza talk about that?
But the reason that Al-Jeezera does make comment is in this war of cultures and believes.....showing the US Political canididates to be political incorrect or not prescribing to a determined norm (separation of Church and State)...is a means to show hypocracy.
I say what it the big deal? Neither attacked Islam with their comment made such rash statements that America would be total Christian country under their Administration or said that minority religions would not be tolerated by them.
So it get down to a strict inpretation of the Constitution. Neither as canididates are in office of President at this time. They have full rights as any other American to assemble in a house of worship and they have full rights of speech. Seems to me....that if you say.....you cannot meet and speak here.....you are treading into the freedom of speech right that they have.
But having clicked all that out. Another issue...is they went there to speak of their faith.....that was the central topic of the Q&A (which I did not see, but understand that it to be). What better place than a Church of a Christian faith? Also are not Christians a segment of our society and country and have right to Q&A canididate on the issue of faith? The canididates have met with corporations, with unions, with VFW (Veterans groups), with the National Urban League (a ethnic Black group) with many other affliations and organizations......why should a Christian church be off limits?
Maybe our friends at Al-Jeezera did not like the idea that both Canididates had a Christian faith to testify of, that they would freely speak of it?
I think that we live in republican democracy, Ship. That in such a republican democarcy there are many forums and stages for both political commentaries and for religious statements. They inner mix.
Consider Rev. Wright use of the Trinity Church altar for a moment. Political or religous? In my opinion, the vast majority of what he laid out there was political, not even close to a church, religous or Christian doctrine. Yet the Federal and other governments did not come into and take him away for his sermons.
It has been that way since the start of the country, even. The court house of a town was usually surrounded by several Churchs. The politics of the day was often spoken at during the Sunday sermon.
Think about the entire temperance movement for a time. Originated in the Churchs, spread to the streets and then into halls of Congress. Made men gringe and cry, to see it happen......but with a evangilical righteous mission, the women of America stepped from those pews......and put a stop to making alchol in America for a long time.
What I find of interest here, is AlJeezera by the way. Here they have a very large number of Clerics around the Islamic world.....that are preaching hatred for America......a political message, yes?.......and they are brothered by two American candidates that meet in a Christian Church? With both American Presidential Canididate that admitting to being Christian? In a country that is predominately Christian?
The think that while Al-Jeezera might have been troubled by that. During that entire Q&A of the two, I bet neither mentioned hatred or anger to the Islamic world or to Moslems in general. But the amount that Moslem clerics incite there followers to violence, is hardly ever mentioned by Al-Jeezera.
I am going to show you how a large majority of consriracy theories begin.
Take the anathrax attacks for instance. What is both within and outside of government.....speculation begins to whom might be done it. The investigators have may possible leads pointing in many different directions. Media that is following the story.....adds more to the group or prospects. And individuals.....not mentioning names......add even more as the sit in a pub or bar some place.
Then clever fellows like yourself......when the real culprit is found as was this anthrax scienctist that commited suciede......dig them all up and blog on them. Why? Well to you if fits this inner thoery that all is a conspriracy and all are consprirators. Like I said earlier.....have a anohter...
Yep I got it, the world has been a single mass conspriracy since WWII, of undocumented meetings, hidden agendas, and the UK/US governments placing less than ethnic people into power in foreign governments around the world. So that eventually, US/UK could invade Iraq....60 years after WWII....to control the world oil supplies. Have beer, you need one.
So really what you are saying....is let us do away with WTO and with G-8. And have bi lateral agreements with smaller and 3rd countries.
First sounds a lot like colonialism. Each major power had its smaller and 3rd world countries that it used for manpower, resources, and markets. Because since the major countries are not operating unilaterally...they will act indenpentantly.
In one way the WTO is a self governing and regulating body. That is saying to all memberstates that these are the standrads for business and finance you must meet to be a partner. Take away those regulations and you have free for all. The richer countries will soon.....strike deals with oil producing countries and with resources rich countries......while the very poor countries are really left to depend on the UN.
Those deals might be or might not be to the benefit of the poorer country. Depending on the ethnics of the major country and its companies. Wish to get into ethnical bid battles with the likes of Russia and China for resources?
Secondly consider a couple of other aspects. One is financial transparency and the war on terrorism. Without the WTO and some of its financial requirements, anyone can do business abroad. With out those financial transparencies in place......it gets easier to send drug money, and weapon money abroad. Easier to money launder.
I can appreacite the idea of fewer regulations. But what happens now, is each country will make up its own regulations on these business relationships. Some will set loose and some will set tight regulations. Not to mention the effects on the World Bank, the IMF, and the G-8 relationships that not having a WTO in place.
So? Botton line :-).......think that it is not likely to occur.
Just so I am not wordy, you mean the you would prefer Sadam Hussien, his family and the Bathe Party to still be in power in Iraq? And you would prefer Mohammed Omat and the Taliban to be power in Afghanistan?
I got, you prefer..... more deathes in these countries....becase under Sadam.....they were averaging 3000 per month there.....today less than a 1000. And in Afghanistan they were executing adulteress under soccer goal post.
We wish to thank you for your confidence and support, Gentlepaws. 'A war that cannot be won'.....'millions of American dieing'.......'spending money' on such things as body armor and vehicle armor to save soldier lives.....spending it providing food to starving Afghani......wish a story of the kind of men we face, Gentlepaws?
I will give you one.
Early in the Afghanistan war.....the Northern Alliance had some of the small towns surrounded by the Taliban. They could not supply them with food. Women, children and elderly lived in the towns. The Northern Alliance fighters. They ask the US....now in the fight...to fly air drops over the towns and drop MREs into them. We agreed.
Only you cannot hit a small village at night with such a air drop.....and a lot would fall outside of the town. They would send the women and children outside the walls to collect them in the morning. Well the Taliban....seeing this. Soon began to place land mines under the MREs packets.....so when the women and children picked them up.....they would see them disappear in a explosion in the town from the walls.
Get the idea gentlepaws?
Now Gentlepaws.....wish not to help these people? Wish them back into those small towns with the Taliban breathing down thier neck and ready to make entry? Bring your Canadian forces home and make them safe. Stop the funding for them. Refuse to provide the equipment and materials they need. When you.....think of the Afghani kid.....you just sold out...and placed into a life of servitude to the Taliban.
American are driving millions of fewer miles as the price of gasoline and diesel rose. We reduced our driving over the last 1 and 1/2 years. By abut 4% so far......and the price has nose dipping at about a 45 degree angle right now.....the last few months.
With alternative energy and hybrid cars on the near horizon, that nose dip is going to continue. So? This is beginning to be reflected in the oil supply and demand picture.....and in long term speculation.
Say you are a oil speculator. You see a sharp drop in demand. With the future demand in question to where it will fall. Most oil futures are bought and sold 1 and 1/2 years in the future. Meaning that when that future is made......the demand could be at -8% where it is today.
That means?
Harder to sell any high priced crude that you acquire today. Prices both at the pump and in the commodity market are begining to reflect this.
We cannot say that it was Washington doing it? We cannot say that it is OPEC or the big oil? Washington cannot even agree on offshore oil drilling. And by now we know that OPEC and big oil would have those prices high for ever small reason or bump in the world that there is.
That returns to less demand.....fewer miles be driven......and the American people doing it. Nice Job Guys and Gals! We only have another 30 or 40 points to go....to send OPEC, the Oil Companies and Washington, the message that we intend to be oil indepedant.
They had control problems of the various stan and cis state units under the Soviet Union. Each felt mixed loyalities. But this is a Russian Army that is in Georgia......so my thinking is that they are playing by the rules set in Moscow. Or trying to.
But said that...there seems to be Russian Georgian militias.....from the two breakaway provinces.....that are aiding them with recon and intel. The one news report I read on Gori......said it was these milita groups from the provinces that were doing the cleansing.... Still it all falls at Putin and Medevdev feet.
Moscow today made the statement to forget Georgia terrritorial intergrity (borders). Which just means they are going to carve this country up to thier liking.
The bear has slowly been regrowing it claws and fangs alright. With it oil revenues it has a flush cash flow to buy the hardware and to pay it industries for the eguipment it needs.
I looked really hard at some pics of a Russian units in Geogria to see how well equiped they are. Still lacking in some cases. Little things.... like missing boots or non military issued clothing.....
But they had weapons, ammo, and gas for thier vehicles.....and if you are going to fight....that is all you need really. They were not afraid to expend any of it. I saw some live footage on a ridge line assault.
Traditional Russian mil exercise....right from the book.....heavy artillery prep.....followed with Aircraft and Hind helo assualt....with tank and AP carrier in close support.
To put all those kind of military elements together.....if you are following what I am saying....takes planning and preparation. This is not just a rag tag response to the Georgian check point incidents....if there were any. But was well planned and prepped.
I get internet info campaign material from both political parties.
Just got one from Chuch Norris......titled......"An Affair to Remember"
Chuch does have a way with words. Anyways this is on the Edward's infideility case. Norris says that Edwards is not calling it what it was...a sin...or adultry...or a lie. Rather Edwards is sugar coating it as a 'mistake' and 'serious case of misjudgement'.
From Chuck's position.....born again Christian.....I can understand that is why and what he is wanting to hear from Edwards. But who knows John Edwards heart on the matter....like John and God?
Just like the PC of the left and far left wants to hear....certain things from Christians and righties.....it seems also that righties and Christian want to hear certian things from the left and the far lefters.
We got to find some tolerance in this....of what we are asking the other to say and expecting to hear.....to give room for symantics and difference of word knowledge, uses and definitions. You go to the dictionary....look up most any word.....of substances......and you find 1/2 dozen definitions.
Saying that doesnot mean that outright lies and fabrications can be tolerated. Our democratic society cannot function with such.
In his piece, Chuck mentions his own one night infideility. And then his sorrow and pain for it. And the redemption from it. So he had to know how strange and hard this is for Edwards to find the right words. But still wrote the piece and got into the fray here.
We getting to the point where...I think that we are acting like 'judge and jury' to other political side. That is not how it should work in America. Where anything that comes from them has to because of political motivation or for political purpose. We have to remain open to the oppositions needs and various points. Someday they will be in power or in minority......and they still deserve the same right to be heard, as you or I would want.
Do I think Edwards is sugar coating his sincerity of mea cupas on this? Maybe so. But is it for me judge that? Or to make political fodder of it? On they latter two questions....the answer is no, in my book.
I think that we all have pushed the buttons here. Well for the exception of RW....Mr. Congentiality. Gesh Indy if the Mod boot you, I have to be on thier hit list. I got 1/2 of WWII, Vet Nam, and the Cold War here in blazing glory for them to read.
If you liked the McCain humor, Skybow.....you most likely will not like this. I would work with those guys in Georgia to help their democracy and to help keep them from the Russian sphere of influnce. And I have worked for nearly a year for the guys in the Ukriane, after Chernobln to get our new Human genone software and its analysis of tumors and DNA related illness from radiation exposure to them.
The ones that stopped the program were Ruskie guys up in Moscow, that saw the legal implication of milllions of Ukrianian with evidence of courts standards that would cause thier Chernobln liabilities claims to increase.
And if asking between a devil that tells me what to wear (yellow shirt) and likely to be so PC correct as to what to say.....and a devil that does, I pick the later.
I will be the one to add some humor to this. If we start pulling threads out of old McCain.....we would be concerned he would fall apart.....we are all too nice a people here at CS to do that.
By they way....if you told John that....I bet he would smile and laugh with you.
Not having read the entire thread. Has anyone said...sleep disorder?
If I understand the concept correctly. When someone does not get enough REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, they are hard to wake in mornings. REM sleep is that deep restful sleep that, we need to recover and refresh.
Maybe have her looked at by a sleep therapist, Claayer.
On the second thought. a 3 year military service hitch with a bugle and a sargeant waking her in the morning might change the habit as well. :-) Guarranteed when they do a bunk roll out on you.....you wake. Well is cheaper than a therapist.
Those gov't insurance program are better left alone. Collecting them is a painful thing to do at times. Just enjoy the month paycheck and the benefits......three squares and hot cot.....and let them keep the insurance payoffs.jmo
ttom500 Forum Posts (10,523)
Good debate Hugs. But let me show you were you are off some. Most of the time in the court room...where justice and mercy
RE: Why is a pastor hosting political candidates??
Ship, first be safe thru Fay...be Fay be a Tropical Storm or Hurricane.You call can the country wyz or abc......but then when you drive down road.....and pass church after church after church after church...all of them a Christian of one or another faith. It is easy come to conclusion that the country is Christian.
It is a very tolerant country that is open to all the other major and minor religions of the world....with the exception of a few very extreme ones. That clause in the Constitution...on separation of Church and
State....allows for and makes for the enclusion of other faiths.
I am not trying to trap you into some Christian doctrine position or into some statement of faith. Not that I can. I state this from a abstract position of geo-political and gov't consultant, Ship. You go to many other countries and ask them....what is the predominate faith of
the US? They will not be saying Islam, Jewish, Hindu or any other faith than Christian. The world precieves the US as Christian.
They mostly don't see this distinction that you do in the Constitution, that where country is 'non-religious' or 'religiously neutral' by the seperation of church and state clause. The rest of the world does not make the that preception.
I was surprised that Al- Jeezera would take a position from the Constitution on the seperation of Church and State. They know us well, Ship. And to be honest, we don't know them well enough.
But back to your concern about bowing to the religious right. Like Indy, I don't think that you have to worry about that with Obama.
McCain.....his faith, Ship.....began back in that Vet Nam prison camp.
It was tested and forged there. Can he be convulted by some Christian
advisory group? Maybe. Depends on who, he lets close enough to has his trust and ear. Can Obama be convulted by some far left group? Yep, and I would be just as worried about that as a right wing group and McCain.
McCain just changed faiths by the way. He had been attending since returning from Vet Nam a Phoenix Pysbtertian Church.....and just moved to Southern Babtist. So it does not seem like he is locked into any one Christian doctrine or faith.
McCain seem to have done well in the Church Q&A from the news reports I have heard. Where Obama they are saying was
'uncomfrontable at times'. Do I think that McCain fits the Christian
voter better then Obama? Yes, I would have to say that is accurate
statement. But how does that equate to achieving a right wing Christian Theology, if he is President?