God...fact or fiction? (926)
omkeerpuntBenoni, Gauteng South Africa1 Threads 268 PostsIs there any reason why we should use the Buster definition of the word truth in this debate. After all the God that I met says He is the truth. I know He exists since I met Him personally and I am by no means alone in that position. It seems you and your definition is out in the cold
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Ok so now we know you learned nothing because we are right back to beginning of page one. I suggest that I just sit out for this round while you read the posts in the previous few pages.
I have yet to hear any factual information from any of you in reciprocation of what I offered you earlier.
I have yet to hear any factual information from any of you in reciprocation of what I offered you earlier.
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Truth is constant, only the existence of yourself to yourself meets that definition and one will have to use that as a frame of reference to measure everything else.
Also a believer does have doubts because that is why they claim faith as a mental or verbal agreement to ignore the doubts pertaining to the belief.
And those that call upon faith ,or to trust unconditionally, or doesn't seek knowledge but contentment, for one not to seek indivual knowledge is to stagnate knowledge for the others and that is why everyone doesn't want to be part of a collective.
Also a believer does have doubts because that is why they claim faith as a mental or verbal agreement to ignore the doubts pertaining to the belief.
And those that call upon faith ,or to trust unconditionally, or doesn't seek knowledge but contentment, for one not to seek indivual knowledge is to stagnate knowledge for the others and that is why everyone doesn't want to be part of a collective.
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No Buster. Not this page. Go back a few and try again. While you are at it I suggest you drop the quasi-phylosophical approach and offer something worth reading. You have not made the spiritual domain go away - in fact you have not even recognised it as a factor in this debate.
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And you have failed to prove God exists. The only thing you have proven, is your own unconditional belief.
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omkeerpunt.
All you have shown is your unwillingness to seek offer proof, you will spew on the forum all your millions of unproven theories but yet when it comes to religious questions you answer with the the word unconditonal.
That the "Sleeper Cell Christian" in you activating and forbidding you to conceive an answer.
All you have shown is your unwillingness to seek offer proof, you will spew on the forum all your millions of unproven theories but yet when it comes to religious questions you answer with the the word unconditonal.
That the "Sleeper Cell Christian" in you activating and forbidding you to conceive an answer.
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If God does exist, then why would he make a newborn child in a third world country suffer (from disease, starvation, etc.) when a child born in a developed country would have a better healthy, long, essentially easier/carefree life?
Did God choose to punish these people? Do they deserve it? Does he neglect them?
If God loves all his children as equals, as many religious groups believe, then why is there so much suffering in the world? By people who do not deserve to suffer....
At one time the only explanation for the unknown events and phenomenon was the supernatural thing some refer to as God. And although we may never understand everything, as humans evolve through the ages and gain greater knowledge and understanding with the increasing availability and advances in technology, what was once unexplained as supernatural can now be logically explained as natural events or phenomenon. I have this feeling as time passes that more and more will be explained as the human mind and technology both evolve together.
We "unbelievers" are sometimes rude and crude because we get very frustrated when supposedly intelligent people quote nonsense from a 5000 year old book of myths like the old testament. A book that's so obviously just old made up stories, superstitions and fairytales it's just laughable. Sorry, but just seems so pathetic to me that people are sucked in by fantasies.
The only reason people in America are mostly Christians is because they were born there and that's the prevailing fairytale they've been brainwashed with practically since birth. If you had been born in China you would be Buddhist, if you were born in Japan you would be a Shintoist, if you were born in Africa you would be Muslim or of a tribal religion. It depends on where you were born and raised which creation myth you follow. But that's all they are, just myths.
And therefore God is just a myth !
Did God choose to punish these people? Do they deserve it? Does he neglect them?
If God loves all his children as equals, as many religious groups believe, then why is there so much suffering in the world? By people who do not deserve to suffer....
At one time the only explanation for the unknown events and phenomenon was the supernatural thing some refer to as God. And although we may never understand everything, as humans evolve through the ages and gain greater knowledge and understanding with the increasing availability and advances in technology, what was once unexplained as supernatural can now be logically explained as natural events or phenomenon. I have this feeling as time passes that more and more will be explained as the human mind and technology both evolve together.
We "unbelievers" are sometimes rude and crude because we get very frustrated when supposedly intelligent people quote nonsense from a 5000 year old book of myths like the old testament. A book that's so obviously just old made up stories, superstitions and fairytales it's just laughable. Sorry, but just seems so pathetic to me that people are sucked in by fantasies.
The only reason people in America are mostly Christians is because they were born there and that's the prevailing fairytale they've been brainwashed with practically since birth. If you had been born in China you would be Buddhist, if you were born in Japan you would be a Shintoist, if you were born in Africa you would be Muslim or of a tribal religion. It depends on where you were born and raised which creation myth you follow. But that's all they are, just myths.
And therefore God is just a myth !
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fact.............
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For those who do not believe God exist.....you sure are doing a lot of talking about nothing then.
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I have given you answers on everything you posted. You on the other hand will not even react to anything I have posted except to spew some more of your own unsubstantiated ideas. You will not change my mind or that of anybody who met Him. We all know that to belong to Him is the most precious thing we ever encountered.
Buster this is nothing new to me. I have done this on other sites and face to face with many people who wants God to go away at all cost. Their desperation shines through in their style of approaching the subject matter. They always use the same arguments, always use intellectual reasoning and the material world as their only allowable reference framework and always ignore the spiritual domain. They always put their cynism before the shared experience of millions of people worldwide and from every culture. And they always end with the same argument that they started with.
For me the fun in this type of debate is that it gives me a reason to think about why I belong to Him and to learn about the minds of those who refuse Him.
Buster this is nothing new to me. I have done this on other sites and face to face with many people who wants God to go away at all cost. Their desperation shines through in their style of approaching the subject matter. They always use the same arguments, always use intellectual reasoning and the material world as their only allowable reference framework and always ignore the spiritual domain. They always put their cynism before the shared experience of millions of people worldwide and from every culture. And they always end with the same argument that they started with.
For me the fun in this type of debate is that it gives me a reason to think about why I belong to Him and to learn about the minds of those who refuse Him.
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No you have not given answers.
No you have not supplied proof.
I don't see my posts as intellectual, just simple logic.
I am not desperate for your God to go away, I simply do not recognise him/her/it.
Your "preceived right way" calls for people to realize your way of thinking, that is the dream of most people, most people believe that the world will be a better place if everyone thought like them.. but it is a fantasy that can only be acheived through oppression of those that don't agree with your frame of mind.
It either has substance or it don't ...it either can be proven past the mind or faith or it can't ... remember anyone can claim a delusion as being reality ..one only has to provide sufficient proof that it is.
The existence of yourself to yourself is one of the absolute truths, but anything beyond that existence is control by the outside forces (nature, soceity and a God if you believe in one) and there is where doubts in oneself lies, either due to lack of experience or lack of knowledge and lack of control over these outside forces, in other words there is no Free Will and you have no choice but to doubt yourself but not doubt your existence.
A Theory and a belief is called a theory and a belief because neither has been proven as being fact so that is why they automatically entails doubt so if you believe them then you have to doubt them.
You can no more prove the eixstence of God then you can disprove the existence of the tooth fairy.
An acceptable level of proof for me personally is when there are no credible alternatives to explain something.
This thread has asked for proof, none has been given.
Case closed.
No you have not supplied proof.
I don't see my posts as intellectual, just simple logic.
I am not desperate for your God to go away, I simply do not recognise him/her/it.
Your "preceived right way" calls for people to realize your way of thinking, that is the dream of most people, most people believe that the world will be a better place if everyone thought like them.. but it is a fantasy that can only be acheived through oppression of those that don't agree with your frame of mind.
It either has substance or it don't ...it either can be proven past the mind or faith or it can't ... remember anyone can claim a delusion as being reality ..one only has to provide sufficient proof that it is.
The existence of yourself to yourself is one of the absolute truths, but anything beyond that existence is control by the outside forces (nature, soceity and a God if you believe in one) and there is where doubts in oneself lies, either due to lack of experience or lack of knowledge and lack of control over these outside forces, in other words there is no Free Will and you have no choice but to doubt yourself but not doubt your existence.
A Theory and a belief is called a theory and a belief because neither has been proven as being fact so that is why they automatically entails doubt so if you believe them then you have to doubt them.
You can no more prove the eixstence of God then you can disprove the existence of the tooth fairy.
An acceptable level of proof for me personally is when there are no credible alternatives to explain something.
This thread has asked for proof, none has been given.
Case closed.
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Well said Buster and thanks 
Here are a few others who agree with us.
I don't believe in God, because I don't believe in Mother Goose. Clarence Darrow
Nature made us--nature did it all--not the gods of the religions. Thomas A. Edison
It is best to read the weather forecast before praying for rain. Mark Twain
The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of woman's emancipation. Elizabeth Cady Stanton
Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. Ambrose Bierce
Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear. Thomas Jefferson
Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind. Thomas Paine
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved the Cross. Consider what calamaties that engine of grief has produced! John Adams
Finding that no religion is based on facts and cannot therefore be true, I began to reflect what must be the condition of mankind trained from infancy to believe in error. Robert Owen
Why has a religious turn of mind always a tendency to narrow and harden the heart? Robert Burns
It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous. Gloria Steinem
The Christian religion not only was at first attended with miracles, but even at this day cannot be believed by any reasonable person without one. David Hume
It's interesting to speculate how it developed that in two of the most anti-feminist institutions, the church and the law court, the men are wearing the dresses. Flo Kennedy
Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system. Thomas Paine
One of my favorite fantasies is that next Sunday not one single woman, in any country of the world, will go to church. If women simply stop giving our time and energy to the institutions that oppress, they could cease to be. Sonia Johnson
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. James Madison
When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one. Benjamin Franklin
Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law. Thomas Paine
Here are a few others who agree with us.
I don't believe in God, because I don't believe in Mother Goose. Clarence Darrow
Nature made us--nature did it all--not the gods of the religions. Thomas A. Edison
It is best to read the weather forecast before praying for rain. Mark Twain
The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of woman's emancipation. Elizabeth Cady Stanton
Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. Ambrose Bierce
Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear. Thomas Jefferson
Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind. Thomas Paine
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved the Cross. Consider what calamaties that engine of grief has produced! John Adams
Finding that no religion is based on facts and cannot therefore be true, I began to reflect what must be the condition of mankind trained from infancy to believe in error. Robert Owen
Why has a religious turn of mind always a tendency to narrow and harden the heart? Robert Burns
It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous. Gloria Steinem
The Christian religion not only was at first attended with miracles, but even at this day cannot be believed by any reasonable person without one. David Hume
It's interesting to speculate how it developed that in two of the most anti-feminist institutions, the church and the law court, the men are wearing the dresses. Flo Kennedy
Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system. Thomas Paine
One of my favorite fantasies is that next Sunday not one single woman, in any country of the world, will go to church. If women simply stop giving our time and energy to the institutions that oppress, they could cease to be. Sonia Johnson
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. James Madison
When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one. Benjamin Franklin
Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law. Thomas Paine
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fiction
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written by Chad Docterman;
Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe.
Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and had the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.
What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it.
Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans.
The ultimate source of imperfection is God.
What is perfect cannot make itself imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect.
What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans.
A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.
Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe.
Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and had the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.
What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it.
Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans.
The ultimate source of imperfection is God.
What is perfect cannot make itself imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect.
What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans.
A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.
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I cant help but notice that you quote Jesus In your post . Yes God is responsible for everything! He is sovereign and responsible and he doesnt have a problem with that, but because we cant know his mind we sit here and wring our hands and worry about it all. we ( people)
are the ones who cause each other trouble- ie mans inhumanity to man
but it wont go on forever .
If man could fix the problem he would have done so long ago , there are those who have tried only to find out they had their own infirmities to take care of.
None of this is a surprise to God he is responsible and he is in control
and you can be as mad about what we are doing to each other as you want, and you can be as mad at God as you want . He can handle it ,and when it is enough he will end it .
are the ones who cause each other trouble- ie mans inhumanity to man
but it wont go on forever .
If man could fix the problem he would have done so long ago , there are those who have tried only to find out they had their own infirmities to take care of.
None of this is a surprise to God he is responsible and he is in control
and you can be as mad about what we are doing to each other as you want, and you can be as mad at God as you want . He can handle it ,and when it is enough he will end it .
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faith
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Proof of God is seen in life.
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