Gaza !! Israel kills civilians ,, among international silence .. What do you think ? share ! (814)
Hugz_n_Kissez: Therein lies the problem...Why don't they care???? Nobody cares about fellow human beings dying...is the very crux and problem of these kind of wars....
Maybe because neither side sees the other as being human beings.
zee
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zeelanderer: Maybe the end is truly near.... time to make piece with your God.
Zee
Zee
I made peace with mine a long time ago.
Eben so, I don't believe this will be the end of the world as we know it but I do see a tactical strike as possible if not probable action if Israel feels threatened by another state supporting Hamas. I really hope Israel is smarter than that but neither side has shown an abundance of rational thought. I guess we'll see soon enough
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LILLYLADY: Quotes From Bertrand Russell:
I would never die for my beliefs, I might be wrong.
I think we ought to entertain our opinions with some measure of doubt. I shouldn't wish people dogmatically to beleive any philosophy, not even mine.
I would never die for my beliefs, I might be wrong.
I think we ought to entertain our opinions with some measure of doubt. I shouldn't wish people dogmatically to beleive any philosophy, not even mine.
Good that you say that becaue it shows that in one thing the two opposite tendencies can always be found.
In a way all this argument to me has to do with that and I just reat to those that only want to show one side of things.
The measure of doubt is great, it makes a little bit beyond the limitations of the arrogant human reason (in the sense of Der Verkunft, or ability of reasoning, or body of knowledge.)
I might comment later about you post on the agreements of peace. This discussion is getting a little boring as we are not the one dying there. We are all a bunch of phonies somehow.
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Sparky55: The truth is it's getting worse and worse. Each side is so inflamed about atrocities of the past that neither are rationally considering the cost in human lives
I suspect there will be no real winners if this conflict continues much further and it will spill over to anyone/any nation seen as providing support on either side. In fact, I honestly believe we are closer to witnessing a nuclear detonation than we have ever been.
I suspect there will be no real winners if this conflict continues much further and it will spill over to anyone/any nation seen as providing support on either side. In fact, I honestly believe we are closer to witnessing a nuclear detonation than we have ever been.
hey Sparks...agree with you on this one......
As you know have been highly involved in this thread for a few days now, but unfortunately there is simply too much hatred and too much power games at work for anybody to listen to reason it seems.
I ache at the carnage and the pain being splashed in front of our eyes.......I certainly do not condone any of he parties.......but yes, ultimately I believe that if Hamas in particular does not back off it's present position, we will be witnessing more carnage in the coming days.
The two year intifada protest did more to raise the Palestinian cause in International fora then eight months of Hamas actions against Israel.
That it seems, is only resulting in the annihilation of the Gaza population.......
And we will all be loosers........not just Israelis and Palestinians.
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gozoman2: There are those among us who dissect philosophies with methodical precision to prove that civilisation is in itself vile....
There are know as Anarchist......
so be careful read between the lines....
There are know as Anarchist......
so be careful read between the lines....
If by chance you meant Antjo then I have to say that from my point of view (and certainly also from an epistemological point of view, say, from the plainly formal strucutre of theories) one can not dissect philosophies to prove the evilness of this civilization. It makes no sense.
I just talk from the experience of certain cultures and their own ways to write history, and also their clash with Western Civilization (just one more within a range of options) that prevailed by its intrinsic destructive nature.
There lays the proof I need, pristine and simple, not in the inner edifice of axioms, assumptions or complicated reasonings.
That is exactly what I meant when I said in a post written to you that "you should go a little bit beyond your personal perception".
It would take me a while to prove (and this can be done with argumentation) how much those ideals of progress and pacifism of the West are linked to the Judeo-Christian view of the world... in particular the strong links to that version that started with the Church founded by Paul and the aftermath of the terrible Roman Empire (from which we have not go beyond one centimer ahead into a better comprenhension of ourselves)
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Antjo39:
It would take me a while to prove (and this can be done with argumentation) how much those ideals of progress and pacifism of the West are linked to the Judeo-Christian view of the world... in particular the strong links to that version that started with the Church founded by Paul and the aftermath of the terrible Roman Empire (from which we have not go beyond one centimer ahead into a better comprenhension of ourselves)
It would take me a while to prove (and this can be done with argumentation) how much those ideals of progress and pacifism of the West are linked to the Judeo-Christian view of the world... in particular the strong links to that version that started with the Church founded by Paul and the aftermath of the terrible Roman Empire (from which we have not go beyond one centimer ahead into a better comprenhension of ourselves)
What Constantine accomplished was probably beyond his own wildest dreams and is the most remarkable and longest lasting trickery ever imposed upon mankind.
The longest lasting and most widespread dynasty ever, even though it makes fewer claims to land, it surreptitiously owns those lands by the preponderance of its inhabitants being constantine drones and or heads of state.
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Antjo39: If by chance you meant Antjo then I have to say that from my point of view (and certainly also from an epistemological point of view, say, from the plainly formal strucutre of theories) one can not dissect philosophies to prove the evilness of this civilization. It makes no sense.
I just talk from the experience of certain cultures and their own ways to write history, and also their clash with Western Civilization (just one more within a range of options) that prevailed by its intrinsic destructive nature.
There lays the proof I need, pristine and simple, not in the inner edifice of axioms, assumptions or complicated reasonings.
That is exactly what I meant when I said in a post written to you that "you should go a little bit beyond your personal perception".
It would take me a while to prove (and this can be done with argumentation) how much those ideals of progress and pacifism of the West are linked to the Judeo-Christian view of the world... in particular the strong links to that version that started with the Church founded by Paul and the aftermath of the terrible Roman Empire (from which we have not go beyond one centimer ahead into a better comprenhension of ourselves)
I just talk from the experience of certain cultures and their own ways to write history, and also their clash with Western Civilization (just one more within a range of options) that prevailed by its intrinsic destructive nature.
There lays the proof I need, pristine and simple, not in the inner edifice of axioms, assumptions or complicated reasonings.
That is exactly what I meant when I said in a post written to you that "you should go a little bit beyond your personal perception".
It would take me a while to prove (and this can be done with argumentation) how much those ideals of progress and pacifism of the West are linked to the Judeo-Christian view of the world... in particular the strong links to that version that started with the Church founded by Paul and the aftermath of the terrible Roman Empire (from which we have not go beyond one centimer ahead into a better comprenhension of ourselves)
I already told you personally what my opinion is, what's the point of also splashing it out to someone else when you are not there to hear me?
From my perspective you are an Anarchist. There are others too, but if and when I meet them again in discussion, I will say that to them face to face too.
Too much talk.......too much dissection.....too much intricate weaving theories......too many reasons.....too many monstrious underhanded plans to usurp power and to manipulate the masses.....
too much empty noise.
It is in the silence of our souls that we discover the truth.....
What do you think people like me are?
Dumb robots without the capability of free thought and action?
Am I a plastic pacifist with empty delectable ideals?
YES....and proud to be so.
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gozoman2: hey Sparks...agree with you on this one......
As you know have been highly involved in this thread for a few days now, but unfortunately there is simply too much hatred and too much power games at work for anybody to listen to reason it seems.
I ache at the carnage and the pain being splashed in front of our eyes.......I certainly do not condone any of he parties.......but yes, ultimately I believe that if Hamas in particular does not back off it's present position, we will be witnessing more carnage in the coming days.
The two year intifada protest did more to raise the Palestinian cause in International fora then eight months of Hamas actions against Israel.
That it seems, is only resulting in the annihilation of the Gaza population.......
And we will all be loosers........not just Israelis and Palestinians.
As you know have been highly involved in this thread for a few days now, but unfortunately there is simply too much hatred and too much power games at work for anybody to listen to reason it seems.
I ache at the carnage and the pain being splashed in front of our eyes.......I certainly do not condone any of he parties.......but yes, ultimately I believe that if Hamas in particular does not back off it's present position, we will be witnessing more carnage in the coming days.
The two year intifada protest did more to raise the Palestinian cause in International fora then eight months of Hamas actions against Israel.
That it seems, is only resulting in the annihilation of the Gaza population.......
And we will all be loosers........not just Israelis and Palestinians.
I understand and especially agree with the hatred portion of your comment. I have made that point myself a couple of times on this thread.
I guess we're going to see what happens in the very near future. Let's hope the inernational ommunity brings cooler heads to the negotiation table and this thing can be stopped.
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"I suspect there will be no real winners if this conflict continues much further and it will spill over to anyone/any nation seen as providing support on either side."
Maybe 10 years of the same speaks volumes .........
Maybe 10 years of the same speaks volumes .........
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gozoman2: I already told you personally what my opinion is, what's the point of also splashing it out to someone else when you are not there to hear me?
From my perspective you are an Anarchist. There are others too, but if and when I meet them again in discussion, I will say that to them face to face too.
Too much talk.......too much dissection.....too much intricate weaving theories......too many reasons.....too many monstrious underhanded plans to usurp power and to manipulate the masses.....
too much empty noise.
It is in the silence of our souls that we discover the truth.....
What do you think people like me are?
Dumb robots without the capability of free thought and action?
Am I a plastic pacifist with empty delectable ideals?
YES....and proud to be so.
From my perspective you are an Anarchist. There are others too, but if and when I meet them again in discussion, I will say that to them face to face too.
Too much talk.......too much dissection.....too much intricate weaving theories......too many reasons.....too many monstrious underhanded plans to usurp power and to manipulate the masses.....
too much empty noise.
It is in the silence of our souls that we discover the truth.....
What do you think people like me are?
Dumb robots without the capability of free thought and action?
Am I a plastic pacifist with empty delectable ideals?
YES....and proud to be so.
I certainly am no pacifist...I am an actionist:
It is no longer good enough to Cry peace,
We must Act peace, Live peace and Live In Peace.
-Shenandoah-
I say that words are empty unless we put them into action during the course of our lives...otherwise they are empty...I have put many of my words into action and I know without a doubt you have too...the most dangerous are those who are just plan indifferent and choose to do nothing because it doesn't effect them...they choose to have no effect....
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If the roles were reversed.....what would you be saying! Put yourself in that place and seek knowledge of both sides without prejudging either. Then comment on the state of affairs.
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Hugz_n_Kissez: I certainly am no pacifist...I am an actionist:It is no longer good enough to Cry peace,
We must Act peace, Live peace and Live In Peace.
-Shenandoah-I say that words are empty unless we put them into action during the course of our lives...otherwise they are empty...I have put many of my words into action and I know without a doubt you have too...the most dangerous are those who are just plan indifferent and choose to do nothing because it doesn't effect them...they choose to have no effect....
We must Act peace, Live peace and Live In Peace.
-Shenandoah-I say that words are empty unless we put them into action during the course of our lives...otherwise they are empty...I have put many of my words into action and I know without a doubt you have too...the most dangerous are those who are just plan indifferent and choose to do nothing because it doesn't effect them...they choose to have no effect....
Hey Hugs....as always highly enjoy your input in whichever thread you post....
Yes totally agree.....I have chosen my path a long time ago for my life, and have been actively living the principals I believe in and diffusing them as far and as wide I possibly could...always have, and always will.
I have made a few enemies along the way....unintentionally but alas unavoidable.....one has to fight just as much to diffuse the concept of peace....some of humanities greatest died for it too.
I simply cannot abide self proclaimed orators who profess continuous theories of civilisation being an invention of manipulative forces to control the minds of the masses........particularly when it ends into statements that profess that human civisaltion has to be torn down and removed.....to be replaced by what?
Anarchy.
That is when I reach the point that makes the difference between being civilised and taking up arms to defend my freedoms.
Love always.
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Hugz_n_Kissez: I certainly am no pacifist...I am an actionist:It is no longer good enough to Cry peace,
We must Act peace, Live peace and Live In Peace.
-Shenandoah-I say that words are empty unless we put them into action during the course of our lives...otherwise they are empty...I have put many of my words into action and I know without a doubt you have too...the most dangerous are those who are just plan indifferent and choose to do nothing because it doesn't effect them...they choose to have no effect....
We must Act peace, Live peace and Live In Peace.
-Shenandoah-I say that words are empty unless we put them into action during the course of our lives...otherwise they are empty...I have put many of my words into action and I know without a doubt you have too...the most dangerous are those who are just plan indifferent and choose to do nothing because it doesn't effect them...they choose to have no effect....
This is my point: just listen to that pope talking about the conflict. They invented that language of pacifism and hypocrisy. IT HAS BEEN REPEATED FOR SO LONG THAT IT HAS BECOME SO TRIVIAL TO OUR EARS. IT has even contributed to our savagery in a huge scale.
That is my point and also the fact that some people like Gozoman uses that with a dosage of defense of this status-quo. Well, he lives probaly relatively decently and enjoy the confort of the western Civilization. Ok, the big monster wants more of those pope-like messages to people. It guarantees that their power would not have at least any opposition, and just in case, if any creative pacifism grows they will always have their gunmen to go and shoot down the promoters of such a real danger (think of M.l.King, Ghandi, and even the moderate leaders in Palestine that come with a different message beyond what is acceptable for the system...)
In my opinion a real pacifism should defy the system and all its atrocities. The creative touch, the broad sight , that all is up to everyone of those that want to defy the system.
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zeelanderer: except for this thread and a few people around the world.... I don't think anyone really cares who and how many die. Two years from now no one will even remember Hamas.
zee
zee
Oo yeahh...you wish!!! Hamas is like an octopus, which cannot be completely destroyed! If only nothing were left of Hamas and no one remembered them in 2 year's time!!
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I´ve read so many comments about evolving and become better and how we should all care, if people would just learn to love, etc, etc.
The problem is not going to go away with love, at least not in the foreseeable future and throwing around philosophy isn´t going to change anything going on over there.
You have a country, who was gifted land by the world powers at the time, this gift took homes and business´s from others. The land mass was not large enough to sustain an independent country, so they started extending their borders in order to accommodate their population, taking even more from people who had lost so much already. The only way this will ever be settled is going to mean that someone loses.
Israel is not willing to go back to their original boundaries and Palestine is not going to accept the insult and homelessness that the loss of the original and additional lands has meant.
Does anyone think they have a solution to this? Yes Egypt got back their land, but at the cost of a potential area wide peace treaty... I believe the Camp David talks were of more damage then good.
The problem is not going to go away with love, at least not in the foreseeable future and throwing around philosophy isn´t going to change anything going on over there.
You have a country, who was gifted land by the world powers at the time, this gift took homes and business´s from others. The land mass was not large enough to sustain an independent country, so they started extending their borders in order to accommodate their population, taking even more from people who had lost so much already. The only way this will ever be settled is going to mean that someone loses.
Israel is not willing to go back to their original boundaries and Palestine is not going to accept the insult and homelessness that the loss of the original and additional lands has meant.
Does anyone think they have a solution to this? Yes Egypt got back their land, but at the cost of a potential area wide peace treaty... I believe the Camp David talks were of more damage then good.
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gozoman2: Hey Hugs....as always highly enjoy your input in whichever thread you post....
Yes totally agree.....I have chosen my path a long time ago for my life, and have been actively living the principals I believe in and diffusing them as far and as wide I possibly could...always have, and always will.
I have made a few enemies along the way....unintentionally but alas unavoidable.....one has to fight just as much to diffuse the concept of peace....some of humanities greatest died for it too.
I simply cannot abide self proclaimed orators who profess continuous theories of civilisation being an invention of manipulative forces to control the minds of the masses........particularly when it ends into statements that profess that human civisaltion has to be torn down and removed.....to be replaced by what?
Anarchy.
That is when I reach the point that makes the difference between being civilised and taking up arms to defend my freedoms.
Love always.
Yes totally agree.....I have chosen my path a long time ago for my life, and have been actively living the principals I believe in and diffusing them as far and as wide I possibly could...always have, and always will.
I have made a few enemies along the way....unintentionally but alas unavoidable.....one has to fight just as much to diffuse the concept of peace....some of humanities greatest died for it too.
I simply cannot abide self proclaimed orators who profess continuous theories of civilisation being an invention of manipulative forces to control the minds of the masses........particularly when it ends into statements that profess that human civisaltion has to be torn down and removed.....to be replaced by what?
Anarchy.
That is when I reach the point that makes the difference between being civilised and taking up arms to defend my freedoms.
Love always.
Ok, you have to reviewed the concept of anarchy. There are many options and the option you are talking belongs to those that want to perpetuate their power.
Anarchy as self-regulation and beyond the Western legends of freedom and democracy is certainly soemthing that can only come when human beings take a step back to the thing they got detached from : that is nature.
Westren Civilization has not been the only option for human beings. That is another legend from the west. Review your books and you will find , even in the language of great Western historians like Toymbee what other civilizations meant before they were destroyed by the fire, insanity and greed of the West.
It is true that nothing like those civilizations can be retrieved, so if our only option is this civilization as you fervently wish, then we are just doomed. I actually tend to think that way most of the time. We are just doomed.
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Antjo39: This is my point: just listen to that pope talking about the conflict. They invented that language of pacifism and hypocrisy. IT HAS BEEN REPEATED FOR SO LONG THAT IT HAS BECOME SO TRIVIAL TO OUR EARS. IT has even contributed to our savagery in a huge scale.
That is my point and also the fact that some people like Gozoman uses that with a dosage of defense of this status-quo. Well, he lives probaly relatively decently and enjoy the confort of the western Civilization. Ok, the big monster wants more of those pope-like messages to people. It guarantees that their power would not have at least any opposition, and just in case, if any creative pacifism grows they will always have their gunmen to go and shoot down the promoters of such a real danger (think of M.l.King, Ghandi, and even the moderate leaders in Palestine that come with a different message beyond what is acceptable for the system...)
In my opinion a real pacifism should defy the system and all its atrocities. The creative touch, the broad sight , that all is up to everyone of those that want to defy the system.
That is my point and also the fact that some people like Gozoman uses that with a dosage of defense of this status-quo. Well, he lives probaly relatively decently and enjoy the confort of the western Civilization. Ok, the big monster wants more of those pope-like messages to people. It guarantees that their power would not have at least any opposition, and just in case, if any creative pacifism grows they will always have their gunmen to go and shoot down the promoters of such a real danger (think of M.l.King, Ghandi, and even the moderate leaders in Palestine that come with a different message beyond what is acceptable for the system...)
In my opinion a real pacifism should defy the system and all its atrocities. The creative touch, the broad sight , that all is up to everyone of those that want to defy the system.
defy....
broad sight.....
the system.....
they......
their gunmen.....
Ah but then you seem to have been enlightened and sit with the Gods.........you seem to know the all the intrinsic evils of western civilisation......
maybe it would be best for you to get yourself a box and start doing session on Sundays in Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park in London.
You may even end up having an audience.
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jbibiza: I´ve read so many comments about evolving and become better and how we should all care, if people would just learn to love, etc, etc.
The problem is not going to go away with love, at least not in the foreseeable future and throwing around philosophy isn´t going to change anything going on over there.
You have a country, who was gifted land by the world powers at the time, this gift took homes and business´s from others. The land mass was not large enough to sustain an independent country, so they started extending their borders in order to accommodate their population, taking even more from people who had lost so much already. The only way this will ever be settled is going to mean that someone loses.
Israel is not willing to go back to their original boundaries and Palestine is not going to accept the insult and homelessness that the loss of the original and additional lands has meant.
Does anyone think they have a solution to this? Yes Egypt got back their land, but at the cost of a potential area wide peace treaty... I believe the Camp David talks were of more damage then good.
The problem is not going to go away with love, at least not in the foreseeable future and throwing around philosophy isn´t going to change anything going on over there.
You have a country, who was gifted land by the world powers at the time, this gift took homes and business´s from others. The land mass was not large enough to sustain an independent country, so they started extending their borders in order to accommodate their population, taking even more from people who had lost so much already. The only way this will ever be settled is going to mean that someone loses.
Israel is not willing to go back to their original boundaries and Palestine is not going to accept the insult and homelessness that the loss of the original and additional lands has meant.
Does anyone think they have a solution to this? Yes Egypt got back their land, but at the cost of a potential area wide peace treaty... I believe the Camp David talks were of more damage then good.
I don't see where anyone was saying love was gonna do it...but humanity just might...and so might negotiation...that's the point nobody is willing to accept or give on either side...until they are...and all sides learn that it may not be exactly what each wants but it will still meet their purpose...hence a win win for alllllllll...this will continue...and there is no other solution...but the hatred etc of each other is only going to keep he conflict going...and if you want healthy leaders...well I guess that can only stem from having healthy people first...that is the truth of the big picture....Needs have to be met on all sides first...the the wants looked at and agreed upon...but none of that will ever happen while people are being killed daily....
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Oooooooooooooh!
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I suspect there will be no real winners if this conflict continues much further and it will spill over to anyone/any nation seen as providing support on either side. In fact, I honestly believe we are closer to witnessing a nuclear detonation than we have ever been.
Maybe the end is truly near.... time to make piece with your God.
Zee